If you can afford it, would you send your children to an independent school?

[Fiona2011231]

This is a hypothetical question, and I would greatly appreciate your insight.

My question is based on this assumption: In England, if you want your children to have a better chance in life (great success, joining the elites, etc), a good independent school is a requirement. Of course, few have enough money to afford it.

But suppose you have enough money, would you send your children to an independent school? Or would a grammar or a comprehensive school be good enough?

Thank you.

Yes and we do. Again we make sacrifices but it is completely worth it.

We could afford it (just) but we don't. If I felt the DC were very unhappy at school I would rather home school than go private.

I think, OP, it depends what one means by achieving greater successes in life, or joining the elite.

If you're asking if private education (especially a certain handful of schools) offer their pupils a far greater chance of becoming a part of the minority who have great power of the majority (ie working in global business, law, finance, politics, media, science, medicine etc), then the answer is yes.

What wordfactory just said: it depends on how you define a better chance. "a better chance in life" defined as the opportunity to rub shoulders with the likes of Cameron and Clegg- hmmm, not so sure about that one.

But not just politics Cory.

The minority of people who have a huge influence over all our lives, perhaps in some way control our lives, are often not part of domestic party politics.

We can't afford it.

If we could, then I would consider it; it would just mean having a greater choice of schools to choose from.

But it depends what "afford it" means - just manage to scrape the fees and have to make major sacrifices? Then probably not, unless I really felt that no other school would suit my child.
Be able to comfortably afford the fees with no real impact on lifestyle? Then I would probably strongly consider it.

I agree that independent schools are bad for society and perpetuate the class system and inequality.

I send dcs because of the above. It's not fair but if they have nice speaking voices, polite manners, and the ability to access cultural capital like the elite it may help them have an easier life. If the parents of their friends run successful companies and employ people in the area, this might help them get started.

Every little helps.

Private school won't help your children join "the elite." Public school will - if you really think that is something to aspire to and approve of. If you have the more mainstream aims of wishing for your children to be healthy, happy, well educated, well adjusted, thoughtful, productive citizens, then you are highly unlikely, if you can afford to look at alternatives, to send them to a school which you do not believe is fulfilling those hopes for your children.

rabit do you really believe that the two are mutually exclusive?

I know lots of people who are in highly influential positions and many of them are healthy, happy, well educated, well adjusted etc etc.

Aren't public and private schools the same thing?

I would send my kids private (and currently do). Not convinced it is worth the sacrifices some people seem to be prepared to make, although I guess that depends on what the local State alternative is like.

In my case, the local State primary is lovely and I can't see that the private school fees are worth the (admittedly relatively small - mostly stress from the relentless upward pressure on fees) sacrifices we currently make. If there were spaces at the local State primary, I'd take them like a shot.

I think a lot depends on area. Where I live the two good schools are hugely over subscribed and the council is building more and more houses. Kids are being pushed out into village schools which are now under strain. One of the two grammars that accept girls is re-locating. I am now worried about the education my DD (2) may have to have as even the good comprehensives are struggling due to the council's complete idiocy (IMO obv.). I have the £ to do private, and went private myself, so I know the system. However it would be more due to lack of faith in what is left of the comprehensive system in this area than anything else.

Yes, and have done. Our local catchment high school is absolutely dire when it comes to educational choice leading to university. It has positioned itself as a vocational school and doesn't even offer the range of Advanced Highers required for a number of university courses. In addition, it is one of the schools which will be limiting S4 choice to 5 courses under the CoE.

DS started P7 this year at an independent school and he is absolutely thriving there- it's one of the best decisions we've ever made (though is very much early days so could change!)

Your question is too open. Do you have specific descriptions of the school choices?
It depends so much on what is on offer.
I would not pay for private education if the independent school is mediocre. It has to be absolutely top notch to justify the expense.

I can and (probably) wouldn't. I don't think you get good value for money. I went to a pretty crap pair of secondary schools - I've now got an MA and I'm the breadwinner for our house, mixing with 'the elites'. My husband and our flatmate both went to the same well-regarded private school. My husband wasn't as established in his career as I was before he jacked it over to start again, and our flatmate has been dossing about on jobseekers for 3 years in between intermittent customer service jobs he can't hold down. Of all their friends, I can't think of one that wouldn't have achieved the same in a standard comp. North of £12k a year - what better things could have been done for that money?

If the school is good enough, what makes the difference is the effort you put in and the expectations you set.

Yes. Whatever the academic level the child is at, he/she will surely learn and enjoy more at a "better" school with better management, planning, teaching and communication skills. The difference between the two schools might not be so big, yet big enough for those who could afford it. There are good state schools but numbers are limited, while you can join an equivalent private school any time.

Kerosene, I think you are spot on on the academic side, and am sure that many state schools are at least as good if not better on this front (from personal experience, I think my son's state primary had the edge on the independent school that he is now at if I look only at learning outcomes for core subjects).

What parental influence can do less about is culture, pastoral care, opportunities outside of core subjects. Now I appreciate that many state schools will also be strong in these areas, but the one my child went to wasn't (and we couldnt find any local state schools that looked better), so this is what we are "buying" - a broader and far happier experience for our son.

wordfactory - I'm interested you seem to think I believe the two are mutually exclusive. Why on earth would I think they were mutually exclusive? I just don't think you need to seek to join the elite in order to be happy, well adjusted, well educated and productive. Given that this is my belief, why on earth would I advocate busting a gut to get your children into a school where they might stand a higher chance of joining "the elite"??? I would prioritise other reasons for choosing a school, personally, rather than the seeking of some "elite" status which does not automatically make you a nicer, better adjusted or happier person.

Doodledumdums - no private schools are not the same thing as public schools.

Or more accurately, public schools are private schools, but not all private schools are public schools...

My two are currently in state education, and love it (as do we).

We could afford independent. We chose their school because we liked it best out of all the local indies and state primaries, and because it suits our needs and our dds' needs the best.

The bonus, for us, is that the girls are now comfortable in loads of different cultures, are not frightened of differences, and we have life long friends from a far more varied background than the local indies would have afforded. But that's not the only reason we chose it - the pastoral care, and excitement about learning, was palpably better than at our other choices.

At secondary, we don't yet know. The only state option is still a bit of an unknown quantity, and we are looking at private as well as state. My heart would like to stay in the state system, not just because of ethics but because I like the openness - it feels healthier. But we have to balance that against the dds' needs and preferences, and most of all choose somewhere they will be able to learn effectively. I've no idea where that is yet!

"So we paid and have not regretted it ever. Both schools (south London) have a really wide mix of children. - think consultant's children, children of single parents living in a one bed high rise block."

Private schools absolutely DO NOT have a 'wide mix' of children.

They are overwhelmingly full of very bright and massively well supported children, whether from rich or poor backgrounds.

What you are paying for when you buy into private schooling is to have your children educated separately from ordinary children who are not on the whole rich, exceptionally bright, or being hot-housed by ambitious parents - whether those parents are rich or poor.

It makes me roll my eyes when parents with children at private schools insist that the school is 'inclusive' because it has children from ethnic backgrounds, and from poor families. 'Inclusive' means a school which reflects the actual makeup of society, and not the top 2% of educational achievers, whether rich or poor.

I never would even though I can actually see that some state eductation provision is woefully lacking...

Yermina my DD goes to a non-selective independent with high number of children from 'less rich' backgrounds and has a high percentage of children with SEN. She is getting an excellent education and experiencing a range of trips etc. that she would never have received, sadly, at our local comp. She is also free from the constant low level disruption which seems commonplace in the state school system but is just not tolerated at her school.

Sidney - do they have a lot of underachieving or low achieving children from ordinary background ON BURSARIES?

Because my inserts anoint is that the only way the children of the not well off (ie about 90% of UK children) can gain access to private education is by performing exceptionally well in a test of their academic ability and/or being gifted in music/arts or sports.

Obviously this means the vast majority of children are excluded from private education as they have neither an exceptional talent, a high IQ or enough cash to bypass these requirements.

As for mainstream private schools taking large numbers of SN children - do you have figures? My dd's mainstream state secondary has 20% of its children with SN.