Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system thread 2

[octopusinastringbag]

Original thread full so here goes.

I think the people who are concerned about aspirational/non-aspirational need to trust their DCs to select friends who are like minded. Generally it is my experience that they find their own groups who are similar to them, especially with setting and especially once the GCSEs have started.

There is such an unthinking equation here between children who pass the 11+ and children with good families... If that's what it's really all about, why don't we just cut out the middle man and assess families when we decide what school a child should go to?

Original. if you look at the statistics you will find grammar schools take very many fewer FSM pupils than other schools in their surrounding areas. So the evidence is there.

My local LA is working wonders turning such kids round in specialist centres that they go to for a few weeks at a time as needed. Its improving them and the schools they are not disrupting. Win Win

Ive seen something like that before when I worked in my last LA school, which also happens to be the LA I live in. They gave it somename after a ship or submarine or something - that was just their name for this project.

I saw some of the results. There were not always win win.

But like many other parents, Iwould rather these kids just disappeared and did not come back. Thats from a mothers point of view though.

I went to two comps, one set by ability including forms for all children from day 1. I was in the too stream and knew nobody, had nothing in common and was really miserable. I then moved to a mixed ability comp and loved it. By the second year I drifted to friends predominantly in my sets but mixed with everybody and there were some very interesting characters including the girl who had had two abortions by the fifth year. Do you know what I then went on to uni and was a really good mixer, have always been a great networker and would not change a thing. My DS is now at the same comp. again most of his friends are in the top sets but he has friends who are not. This is life. My cousin went to a very selective grammar in Birmingham and he hated it, was found wondering around Birmingham because he had nothing in common with his class mates and was small so picked on. He went to the same comp as me then, got a first and is now an accountant at a top firm in London. For me a good structured comp which streams for the more academic subjects including humanities and science from day 1 but has mixed forms is the best option.

Abbiefield, I felt slightly sick when I read your last sentence. It cones across incredibly badly.

Grammar schools did not work in the past either. The kids from small families and middle class parents took up most of the places at local grammar schools in the 50s. My father, one of 9 kids, two different fathers, didappeared mother of three of the kids, failed 11+, as he had no help at home, his mother cleaned, 3 kids in one bed. He then went on to excel at secondary modern as one of the brightest kids there but his achievement levels were always limited as sec mods did not do GCSEs. He married my mom from middle class family who had gone to GS but hated every minute of it. Guess who did the best academically overall in later life? My mom was out off exams for life! Those who think GS was good for disadvantaged kids in the 50s only say that because one or two kids got there from poor homes but takes no account of size of family. A lot more did not. So if GS was brought back in to my area I would move.

I like the mix too. DS was in lower sets but he has always made friends among the top sets; an impossibility if they are all creamed off to a different school. He is not academic, but that doesn't mean he is stupid! He gets on well,and has a lot in common with the more academic, and is very sporty. He did not drag them down in any way! He is well behaved with a good work ethic.

You should raise your kids well and they will pick the best friends for them. Trust them. Some of the comments on this are just awful. Are you going to pick the spouse for your kid too?

"My LA believes in mixing things up ( social engineering) so none of the schools have a consistent type of student. The idea of course is to provide diversity and to level the playing field. What it does is generally lower standards all round."

How does it do this?

I am sorry if it offended you. But it is how I feel. My DC suffered badly as a result of some disruptive pupils in a local school. We all react to our experiences and those were mine. As I said, its as a mum.

Maybe the use of the term disappear was strong. Personally,I would rather such children were removed from the school environment, thats all I mean. I know its not politically correct but where my own children are concerned, I am not always politically correct. Rather like our MP's who advocate state comprehensives for everyone else but will not rule out the alternatives for their own children.

I'm afraid that Abbyfield's sick making comment is fairly common, as in 'as long as my child gets what I consider the best, I couldn't give a damn about the rest'.

Talkin it does influence it but it can be in different ways - the poor kid determined to work hard and get out of their situation or the lazy rich kid. I just don't like the generalisations.

We had the option of a scholarship, bursary whatever for mine but turned it down, we can't keep up with the Jones and so I didn't want them to be the poor relations.

We should want the 'best' for all our children and those disadvantaged from the start need the 'very best' and not the sink holes.

Oh, and can I nail this "comprehensives are the Holy Grail of education" myth. Nobody thinks that all comprehensives are wonderful.

The problem is that lots of people on here seem to have seen one they didn't like, ant think they are all like that. Or even one element of one they didn't like.....

And there is a very strong view that grammar schools are the Holy Grail. Some of us are trying to point out that there is a lot of collateral damage in a selective system.

Several strategies curlew. Both in the way they divide the catchements for the schools and deal with admissions and in the way schools generally divide up the school populations and set the pupils. There is also a policy in the LA of bringing in pupils from other places who have known problems - direct social engineering.

Grammar schools were never the best for all in the old days. I have a friend, very intelligent and she has done well in life, and yet she was written off in the grammar school and put into a form called 'the remove'! It took her a long time to get self confidence back after that.

I was in an LEA that used social engineering which resulted in my DS not getting in to any of our local schools within walking distance. However the kids do now get a coach to a school with a much more mixed intake and I do think they benefit from the mix. Some incredibly rich but naughty kids, some from very deprived areas who are generally less disruptive.

SatinSandels - considering the comment you made last night, I am surprised at you now. I wont go back and thorw it at you.

However, as I said we are all shaped by our experiences. I havent mentioned my own schooling but my mother sent me to alocal school. I didnt go to grammar school. The LA were closing them anyway. She believed what many of her generation werebrain washed into after the war, that the state schools were good, they worked on meritocracy and it didnt matter what your background, if you had ability you could succeed.

The reality ( except forred ed) was rather different. I went to a school with what some here have called the great unwashed. I cannot say it was a good experience. I cant even say I learned anything worhtwhile from it either. I will not go into details. I have never forgiven my mother for that.

I will not let it happen tomy own children, so when I sawthe same strategies being applied in local schools I was not happy.

What do you mean by the great unwashed?

Perhaps you need to throw it at me, I have been back and I can't see anywhere that I haven't said that all children deserve the best and all children deserve to learn without disruption. The only part that I can see is relevant is making sure that my children get a good comprehensive. I am not sending them to a 'bog standard' one. It doesn't mean that I am not bothered about the ones that attend one. I think we should improve the present system and not go back to creaming off.

As mentioned I went to two comps, one that worked, one that didn't. Not all comps are the same but they are adapting.

Satin. I agree - creaming kids off at 10/11 really has nothing to do with natural ability and more about family environment.

Grammar schools would be just as successful if you interviewed the parents and said 'right attitude- in or wrong attitude- out'. You could do it with parents of 3 yr olds, that is the sad fact. Much better to look at the 3 yr olds that are likely to fail and intervene early.

If somebody can come on and tell me that the kid whose parent/parents have no interest in working/books will stand as much chance of passing the 11+ as the cherished kid of parents who read to them, take them to museums then I can see a reason for grammar schools but really that attitude that we are all born with ability and one test can pick children who are academic and (most importantly) will work hard from the age of 10/11. I find it very naive and quite frankly laughable.

SatinSandels - I take that back, it wasnt you,it was WooWoOwl. Its just your post was just above it and I confused them . Says a lot about my poor education doesnt it? I cant read or write properly can I? I am a product of that education and that social engineering, even though I have the insight to realise it. Many do not. Thats what happens when you go to schools where education is poor. You get big holes in basic skills and despite all efforts making up for them later doesnt happen.

When I was at school, the ability and social mix was such that one teacher remarked one day that there were only two pupils in the whole school who had any chance of going to university. He seems to have been correct from what have found out about the end products of my school at that time. Says it all really.