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Original poster

Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system thread 2

381 replies

octopusinastringbag · 29/10/2013 10:04

Original thread full so here goes.

I think the people who are concerned about aspirational/non-aspirational need to trust their DCs to select friends who are like minded. Generally it is my experience that they find their own groups who are similar to them, especially with setting and especially once the GCSEs have started.

OP posts:
teacherwith2kids · 31/10/2013 16:25

You see, I would like the nurse who cares for me in hospital, the care worker who will look after me in old age, the financial advisor in whom I entrust some of my affairs, the actors in my local theatre, the builders who create our public buildings, the nursery workers who will look after my grandchildren and the undertaker who will lay out my parents .... not to mention alll the other people who make my life possible day to day ... to be 'educated to their potential', not 'relegated to a second class system while I scoot off shouting 'I'm alright, Jack''. Because my comfort, my safety and that of those I love depends on the abilities of others.

Not altruism - self interest.

teacherwith2kids · 31/10/2013 16:27

(And of course, in a negative sense, it is in everyone's best interests to minimise the size of the disaffected underclass - and being relegated to a separate institution on the basis of a couple of tests aged 10 is not a GREAT way to start fully engaging a child who might anyway be struggling with education)

Summerworld · 31/10/2013 18:23

^teacherwith2kids Thu 31-Oct-13 15:16:04

Losing - me too. I love it that DS - at the comp DD will go to next year - has learned to cook and sew (as well as create designs using some very impressive ICT-driven cutters etc), while still having every intention of doing 2 MFL, History, Geography, and separate sciences for GCSE. Meanwhile others do do business studies or health and social care, computing or product design - because those are the courses that best fit them.^
Personally, I see no value for my child in doing Business Studies or Cooking and Sewing. These have got no real value in the world out there IMO (and can be learnt perfectly well at home). What has value on university application forms and in subsequent career is high-level Maths, English, MFLs, Sciences. Grammars tend to put a special emphasis on 'hard' subjects, while comps see equal value in offering 'soft' subjects. I do not see them as the same, or of equal value. But that is my opinion. I accept there are people with a very different outlook and they should be able to pick a school which offers a good range of soft disciplines.

losingtrust · 31/10/2013 18:28

Again the view that comps only offer soft GCSEs and only grammars prepare children for uni! So sad that this view persists.

curlew · 31/10/2013 18:31

"Grammars tend to put a special emphasis on 'hard' subjects, while comps see equal value in offering 'soft' subjects"

Yet another one of those unsubstantiated statements. The grammars round here all do textiles, DT, Food Tec and performing arts.One of them even offers Photogrqphy A-level!

But the point is- just because the school offers "soft" subjects, it doesn't mean you have to do them. My son's school offers the normal range of vocational subjects that generally speaking are more suited to the less academic child. Guess what? He's not going to do them! Well, actually, he is going to do BTec Sport...he thinks it's going to be a doddle. He is in for a nasty surprise.....

losingtrust · 31/10/2013 18:33

My DS's softest choice is Music and I encouraged him to do one that he could really find more practical.

IndiansOnTheRailroad · 31/10/2013 18:38

Music isn't a soft choice.

curlew · 31/10/2013 18:39

Neither are most "soft choices"

losingtrust · 31/10/2013 18:41

I know. He is in for a bit of a shock.

IndiansOnTheRailroad · 31/10/2013 18:42

Textiles always sounds soft. And comfy. Grin It would be impossible for me and mine though.

losingtrust · 31/10/2013 18:43

Although I do have a friend who considers art and music hobby subjects and does not encourage her son to do the homework.

IndiansOnTheRailroad · 31/10/2013 18:49

Well, they can be hobby subjects too if you don't take them seriously. But Music GCSE is a very demanding exam and certainly not a soft option (it's very rigorous) and art is a complete nightmare (allegedly). Very hard. Neither subject is magically easier if you are talented either.

teacherwith2kids · 31/10/2013 19:06

Sumerworld - you have misread - or at least misinterpreted - my post.

DS - top sets, very able - is doing, and will do to all the 'hard' subjects you would expect a child of his ability to do [though as he is in Y8, he is still doing the full range of subjects such as Technology / ICT / Art that he will not pursue to GCSE]

The fact that subjects such as Health and Social Care are offered within the school is of no consequence to his education. However, it does mean that those for whom such subjects are highly relevant and useful in terms of future career can access them - that is the definition of a comprehensive.

losingtrust · 31/10/2013 19:11

My niece is taking Dance GCSE. She is a very academic child but she loves it and has danced all her life. Her mothers' view: an extra way of earning money whilst at uni.

teacherwith2kids · 31/10/2013 19:41

DD is likely to do the same, losingtrust.

soul2000 · 31/10/2013 19:53

Its important that your children are put on the "Right Track" regarding the
options they take. Some people may regard them as "Soft" but could lead
to a career and a "Good life". Curlew. I "Feel for you", your Dc must feel trapped in his school and "Branded" but that is just the way it is.

However your Dcs could be easily persuaded to take some of the less academic courses for the schools benefit and not your Ds .

Phineyj · 31/10/2013 20:29

It was pages ago, but someone asked why grammars don't show better 'value added' - it's because GCSE doesn't distinguish well at the top end so there is little value to add in terms of exam scores, if the vast majority get A or A. Then the sixth form value added is based on that pile of As - same problem. I am going to sound like a soppy old hippy, but I would like to see a 'happiness added' score. I came out of my grammar with 3 As at A level (we'll ignore the C in music - now that is a hard subject) but I was quite miserable there some of the time.

soul2000 · 31/10/2013 21:16

Phineyj. I see you got a C in Music no wonder you could not get my
musical V.R test.

1.Right Track= Were on the Right Track 1974 Roulette Records.

  1. soft= Soft Cell=Tainted Love 1981= Gloria Jones 1966.
3.Good Life= Inner City 1988. 4.Feel for you = Chaka Khan 1984. 5.Trapped = Colonel Abrams 1985.

5.Branded= Robert Knight 1967.

  1. Easily persuaded =Martha Reeves and the Vandellas 1970.

The link is Roulette to Casino = Wigan Casino 1974-1981.

I just thought i would have a bit of fun and see if any one understood what i was doing.

On a serious note this bit of fun, demonstrates that if some kids have
had no practice on VR how can they possibly have a chance.

Therefore why don't all the grammar schools offer classes in VR ,, free for kids
from low income families.

curlew · 31/10/2013 21:25

I have no idea what you're talking about, soul. But hey ho. Whatever floats your boat. People grasp at any straw when they don't have facts, decent arguments or an understanding of the topic under discussion............

Kenlee · 31/10/2013 23:08

I think ALL schools should teach Verbal reasoning and non verbal reasoning. Grammar schools are great if no catchment area is assigned. That way they do no become free independent schools for the middle class.
If a child is disruptive and unruly. Where parents do not care about the child and the child has lost all sence of discipline. Then create a military academy. So they learn discipline. Note there is nothing wrong with the child apart from lack of parental support.

If the child has AHDH, SEN or any other problems I do think specialist schools that can cope with special needs. Professional that understand what the child needs. Not a teacher who is trying to hold a class of 30 together.

Should selection be done at 11....yes because if the kid is a late developer...I think their should be provision made in Grammar school for late entry.

Is this all very elitist.... Yes it is because you need leaders who are clever and can see the whole picture. you need inventors that are smart enough to invent and not just copy. You need leaders...

Yes the rest of us are the sheep. That does not mean we do not deserve an education. True democray relies heavily on an educated eligatarian society. Therefore those who disrupt this should be removed.

Although having great results mean nothing if your just an exam taker and not a thinker....

BoffinMum · 01/11/2013 11:10

if you routinely teach verbal reasoning and non verbal reasoning you are in fact skewing the data, so it ceases to be an intelligence test, and more a test of teaching outcomes. Sorry to have to state the obvious.

There are better ways of developing reasoning skills, such as music theory, mathematics and learning modern foreign languages.

curlew · 01/11/2013 11:16

"Yes it is because you need leaders who are clever and can see the whole picture"

Separating them from the majority of their peer group at the age of 10 is going to really help with this............Hmm

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 01/11/2013 12:13

Again, it would be useful to understand what people mean when they talk about 'a good comprehensive'.

My dds school does all sorts of those things like ASDAN Cope (never understood what that is) at GCSE, which she didn't do. It doesn't honestly matter all that. And at least her good friends who did things like business studies where there at school too!

curlew · 01/11/2013 12:16

Do you think the very presence of a BTec Hair and Beauty worksheet in the school is in some way contaminating?

Summerworld · 01/11/2013 14:48

^curlew Fri 01-Nov-13 12:16:50
Do you think the very presence of a BTec Hair and Beauty worksheet in the school is in some way contaminating?^

I think a school cannot be good at everything. On one hand, posters are suggesting it can teach children hard subjects as rigorously as a grammar (to a top set), while at the same time offer midly entertaining courses like hairstyling (primarily aimed at lower sets). Well, I find it hard to believe it can do both, and everything in between, well. It is the story of Jack of all trades, master of none. I am much more comfortable about a grammar not trying to be all things to all people. It has found its niche and has achieved excellence while concentrating on a particular type of provision. It does not suit everyone, but why should it? People are all different and the society needs good plumbers, hairdressers and carers as much as cardiac surgeons or top mathematicians. Does it mean that we should put a future electrician though a grammar routine of high-level maths and Latin? If it is not something a person wants to do (or is cut-out for), it is ridiculous and counter-productive. A comp will be the best form of education for them. But, frankly, the opponents are yet to convince me that a comp will be the best form of education for a very bright academic child. So far, I have also only seen the "social mixing" argument for it. I do not for a minute believe comps teach hard disciplines to the same standard. It is not what I have seen.