Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system

[englishteacher78]

I went to one - my choice in part, parents would have preferred me to go to the Catholic secondary. As a teacher I have worked in two.
I know if I had gone to the Catholic school I would have coasted (even more than I did).
Some people seem to he very against the grammar school system and I'm not sure why. It was the making of my dad (miner's son from council estate in Scotland)and I think that all counties should have that provision. Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.

Despite what a lot of parents think the Sutton Trust found that as many children in areas which only have comprehensives get into the best universities as in those areas with grammars from state schools. However on an individual child basis you probably do improve the chances your own child has if you get them into a posh comprehensive where parents are rich in a wealth area or a state grammar or very selective private school.

I wish.

Gove and his ilk wish folks like me would dissolve into the ground

Retro - surely the brighter kids should be doing some year 6 stuff otherwise where is the differentiation?

I asked that at parent's evening! I think they see differentiation as providing slightly more of a challenge, but within the same area of learning, rather than what I would like it to mean, which is moving on to a different topic, if the current one has been grasped. Dc (Yr 5) is on G and T list (a load of bollocks, but I suppose a recognition on their part of some ability), but is coming home with 8 x table homework (time yourself and see how quickly you can do it, is the differentiation) and has been 'consolidating' 5x in class. Setting for maths recently abolished in favour of whole class teaching (to try and bring up the 3s to 4s, I think, as you said). And this is a good primary (to date, anyway).

And this is what our school is aspiring to

inclusive education done well beats the rest into a cocked hat

Totally agree with TalkinPeace.

Why is the selective system wrong?

Selected thoughts:

In personal terms:

Mary and Miranda are best friends at primary school and are both similarly bright, happy children.

Mary just fails the 11 plus. She feels a failure and it affects her self esteem for life.

Miranda just passes the 11 plus. She feels fantastic and it affects her self esteem for life.

Miranda and Mary never speak again. Miranda feels guilty and thinks Mary must dislike her for being lucky enough to pass. Her parents tell her not to worry, it's not her fault that she is so bright and she deserves the place.

Mary feels that Miranda is far cleverer than her and why would she want to speak to her when she has all her new friends at the grammar school. Her parents tell her that since Miranda is getting all snooty and above herself she is not worth bothering with.

In political terms:

Children from different demographics do not mix when there is a selective system. Children who are less privileged to start with receive an inferior education.

In general terms:

It sucks.

How do they get an inferior education?

More kids round here go other schools instead of the feeder over the grammar.

How does 4 or 5 kids not going to a school but only to a grammar cause the other 90 odd % to have an inferior education,just how?

Their absence has no impact on teachers hired,resources etc.

retropear
because it is an artificial split of resources between the top 4 in a catchment area and the next 96

the two below the cut are saddled with being in a class of kids thicker than them - the absolute anathema to those lucky enough to make the cut
so why should they be penalised?
or should the superselective get bigger?
in which case how big?

or even simpler
abolish the darned thing and get all of the kids from an areas to go to school together

God no,more choice please.

Aren't grammars going to be allowed to expand,I'm sure the head said ours was?

more choice please
Aren't grammars going to be allowed to expand

But Grammars are only one very narrow aspect of choice.

They do not cope with arty kids or sporty kids or musical kids
and no kid is actually just academic or one of the others
so selective schools on any one criteria will be weak on the others

I like the fact that DCs school allows every child to choose their specialisms within the same campus
and genuinely cannot see why people would want other than access to all aspects of the curriculum on one site.

What happens if your arty kids in year 9 decides they adore physics but they are at an arty school - they are stuffed.
At a comp they just change options and stay with the same cohort.

inclusive education done well beats the rest into a cocked hat

Totally agree with TalkinPeace.
And I do too.

How does 4 or 5 kids not going to a school but only to a grammar cause the other 90 odd % to have an inferior education,just how?
Because the criteria for getting into the non-grammar is failing to get into the grammar and because everyone knows that.
So often the subliminal message is the one that children learn, and not the one taught in class. A hugely important part of what a school imparts is a boost to the self esteem.

Just finishing watching "RADLEY COLLEGE" reunion.
these are the enemy and schools like them "Not grammar schools" for gods
sake. Listening to some of them makes my blood boil. The pillock who runs
an investment company in Mayfair stating that "The fact the state schools cant copy public schools is down to poverty of aspiration. Another thing let gets me on here is the constant criticism of grammar schools but no
noises calling "public schools" .

I'm glad I didn't watch that.

ooh, will have to watch it on catch up - I know some of the people featured

soul2000
Public schools are not funded from the taxes of those who cannot access them.
They are funded largely from the after tax income of the higher rate taxpayers.
The UK's infamous boarding schools are a reliable source of foreign earnings to the UK economy
THose countries that have banned private schools provide some of the richest pickings for the UK
They are odious but obvious.

zzzzz
Honestly children are far more robust than this
you do not have a teenager do you.

It's not like that with all grammar schools though math. Those that have access to super selectives probably, in most cases, have access to good enough comps that criteria for going to the non grammar school is a matter of choice, not failure, because most won't even have entered the 11+.

Plenty of those that do fail the 11+ that their parents have opted into on their behalf, do pass common entrance exams to private schools and go there instead.

In situations like this, children know they are talking an exam that is difficult and that they might not get in, it's up to their parents to give them realistic expectations and to not allow them to feel like complete failures.

I know this isn't the same in places like Kent, but the distinction does have to be made, because some systems that include grammar schools really are quite good.

Not probing. I have an excellent memory.
You said up thread that you have five kids, the oldest in year 7, some HE, some SEN. I'm an auditor, its my job to remember useless facts

and more to the point, until you've dealt with hormonal teens you have no idea how divisive segregated schools can be

inclusive education done well beats all other systems into a cocked hat

I understand that T.P ... I have known kids from my last resort private
school go to Milfield and other places in the 6th form.
I have been to some of their parties and wanted to throw up.

The point is we criticize parents who in most circumstances have not had great educations. However though shear hard work, have got their families
in to a decent financial position. With sacrifices these families can afford
a small prep school (Nothing Special) or tutoring to help their kids, in to what they consider is the appropriate school.

Another thing .. What would you say to my cousin who's daughter was offered a 50% bursary, to a well regarded independent school but could not afford the other 50% ... She is totally underwhelmed in inner cities
schools that cannot help her fulfill her academic potential.

soul2000
throw up - all the posh kids will have been

50% bursary - unless you can afford the extras you are better off going state. When I was being put through scholarship exams at the end of primary that was the really big issue. As it was my circumstances changed but being the one kid in school who cannot afford the extra curricular would be foul.

and frankly I suspect that in any city, with a bit of data mining it will be possible to find a school that does well with her calibre of kids, if not all of their cohort.

Meant to say... When the kids were my age...

talkin....as you are so fond of telling us, though, the are no grammars in Hampshire. So I'm not sure how you feel justified in telling someone else they know nothing about the problems of segregated schools because they dont have teens, when you have teens but dont live in an area with segrgated schools. Two of my kids are teens, one at grammar one at comp and they are both hormonal and yet also completely fine with their different schools (neither would swap for the world). They get on extremely well, incidentally, far better than any of the siblings we know of a similar age (I'm sure they are nothing special in a world context though). The fact they get on so well is probably to do with two things (1) both nutters (2) different schools. I am slightly concerned about child 3 going to the same school as child 1 next year because while that will do wonders for her relationship with her brother I don't think it will have a positive impact on her relationship with her sister.

Honestly children are far more robust than this and it's the VAST majority of them not a beleaguered minority.

They see their poor opinion of the vast majority, including themselves, confirmed, and understand that aspiration is only for the elite.

What the departure of a select few to GS tells the rest is that there is only room at the top for a few so why bother.

If they are so robust where does Britain's remarkable lack of social mobility come from?

And if your child is as robust as you claim children are why are you bothering to send him to a grammar school? Surely he would be just fine elsewhere?