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Original poster

Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system

1000 replies

englishteacher78 · 24/10/2013 07:24

I went to one - my choice in part, parents would have preferred me to go to the Catholic secondary. As a teacher I have worked in two.
I know if I had gone to the Catholic school I would have coasted (even more than I did).
Some people seem to he very against the grammar school system and I'm not sure why. It was the making of my dad (miner's son from council estate in Scotland)and I think that all counties should have that provision. Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.

OP posts:

zzzzz · 27/10/2013 08:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Retropear · 27/10/2013 08:35

Abu grammar schools differ as do all schools.Do you not think parents are well able to work out if their local school grammar or not offers a good education.

Oh and some research has shown results are better for all in grammar areas,even in areas with high unemployment.

I guess it's which "research" you choose to go on.

I personally go by what school fits my individual children best which is why they may well all go to different schools grammar and non grammar.I like the alternatives for my non grammar dc as do many other parents.Your vision of non grammar schools isn't reality where we are.Our local schools have kids going to Oxbridge for the high flying and I have no worries re any of my dc going to any if them which is why they will be.Tbh all are better than the primary they go to.

curlew · 27/10/2013 08:42

Zzzzzzzz- you're talking- apart from university entrance, about who does what first. Yes, X may not get a bike for their 6th birthday- but still has birthdays to come when they probably will get one. Y learned to read in Reception, but Z will still learn in year 1. X has not had a letter saying that was your one chance of a bike- sorry, you'll never get one now. And X hasn't had to go into school to see all the kids with their bikes, knowing that he failed the bike test.

I can't think of a single other test that is so final, and where failure is so public. And we somehow think it's a good idea to make 10 year olds do it?

curlew · 27/10/2013 08:44

Retro- could you explain what you mean when you say a comprehensive education is "one size fits all"?

Retropear · 27/10/2013 08:48

How on earth is it public?

Nobody knows who is entering it.

I will prepare my dc properly by not bigging it up,bigging up the alternatives,by not telling them their whole life depends on it,by not making a masseeeeeeeve hoo ha over it,by telling them it's just one day so could go either way,by saying we will be proud of them whatever and by saying it's simply a process to find the right school for them.

Ours can go later if they so wish and want another go or just for Alevels if they get god enough GCSEs.

You Curlew re making it a big deal and I parent differently.

zzzzz · 27/10/2013 08:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Retropear · 27/10/2013 08:51

I did.

Xoanon · 27/10/2013 08:54

Retro - some people make everything public. And then complain about things being public.

Personally I do believe the kent system (see also Bucks and parts of Essex) is a too blunt tool. I don't think a top 25% grammar school can have many or any benefits over the top sets at a comp. I agree with all the posters who say that this blanket testing is wrong.

On the other hand I think the voluntary superselective system is excellent and clearh works for not just those who get in but the rest too.

Nit - as far as the one size fits all thing goes, I think for a comp to have an effective top stream that would replicate the superselective, it would have to be gigantic. Huge. To get 30 or so kids at that top range. You wint find them all in a 5 road catchment. And that would not suit certain types of kid, especially kids with certain types of non performance affecting SEN who are often found in superselectives. :(

Retropear · 27/10/2013 08:55

Oh and my mother failed first time when my dad took it a year early.She has had a successful,happy life with a professional job she loved.She wants my DS to give it a go in a relaxed non high pressured tutoring(which we can't afford anyway) atmosphere.

Failing doesn't seemed to have ruined her life and passing gave my incredibly bright dad(from a very poor family) the education he needed.

merrymouse · 27/10/2013 08:58

The 'public' bit depends on where you live.

I don't think many people are that bothered if they aren't the 1 child that gets into the super selective grammar school. However, my parents and in-laws were in the full grammar school system, and they certainly knew who did and didn't go and could give you along talk, even 55-65 years later about how it affected them. It's still referred to in conversation "of course so and so did/didn't go to the grammar school so they did xyz".

Also, as far as I remember, when I took selective exams you knew who had entered the exam because you saw them at the exam...

Retropear · 27/10/2013 09:02

Well I have no intention of making my DS miss out on something which could benefit him just because he may see a couple of kids from his school.

curlew · 27/10/2013 09:08

Nobody knows who's taking it? Are you kidding me? Do you think the kids don't notice? And talk about it on results day?

And not public? The different school uniforms on the first day of year 7 are a bit of a giveaway!

curlew · 27/10/2013 09:10

"Retro - some people make everything public. And then complain about things being public. "

It is impossible for it not to be public.

Retropear · 27/10/2013 09:10

But they'll all be catching buses to different schools from different locations and won't give a stuff.

If a child is devastated by not passing the 11+ that is down to the parents.Rest assured my dc won't be.

curlew · 27/10/2013 09:16

Obviously things are different if you are only talking about superselectives.. As I've said before, I can see the argument for them, although I personally don't think I think they are a good idea - I don't like the idea of segregating children from their peers in this way.

But the "old fashioned" grammar school system that people look back on so fondly really does operate in the way I say. If you have not had personal experience of it you can have no idea.

Retropear · 27/10/2013 09:18

That is your opinion.

flatiron · 27/10/2013 09:20

It's always public, retro. Children talk to each other, and so do parents.
Heaven knows, it's the main topic of conversation among Yr. 5 parents here. Not in a smug "My dc is going to try for the grammar school" way, but in a panicky "OMG, where are you going to send them if they don't pass" way.

The division here is so endemic, that the way I deal with it, with my own child, (and I never 'big up' the grammar) isn't going to affect the overall perception.

curlew · 27/10/2013 09:21

"That is your opinion."

Which bit?

zzzzz · 27/10/2013 09:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

curlew · 27/10/2013 09:26

"We didnt know anyone attending the exam, but then we also had no idea how big a deal it was"

In fully selective areas you would. Because they do it in the school hall during school time.

Retropear · 27/10/2013 09:29

But Flatiron I don't give a stuff re perception from others as regards the education of my dc's and I'm raising my dc the same.

SatinSandals · 27/10/2013 09:31

Think it is the child themselves. My parents never made me feel it but I consider that I was written off at 10 yrs. why on earth did I have to explain, aged 11 yrs that I was going to go to the grammar school at 16 yrs and onto university? Why did they they think I couldn't? I did just that, as did thousands of others failed by the system. It was very difficult and would have been much easier to be in a school that took it as norm and you could stay in the same place from 11-18yrs.

SatinSandals · 27/10/2013 09:33

It was a huge deal!
Super selectives are quite different and many pupils who could try for it don't bother because the comprehensives are so good in the area.

curlew · 27/10/2013 09:35

Retro-do you have any experience of a fully selective system?

flatiron · 27/10/2013 09:35

Curlew "In fully selective areas you would. Because they do it in the school hall during school time."

This is a genuine enqiury, not making a point.
Are the primary schools in the areas you mention still involved in the process, then? I'm interested, because it's so different here. It sounds more like the 11+ of years ago that I was familiar with. I'm assuming that even though it takes place in the school hall during school time, that not every child sits it? Do the primaries give 11+ practice beforehand?
Even though the state grammar is the only decent state secondary here, the primaries have largely opted out of the process, and the exam is taken at the grammar on a Saturday.

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