Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system

[englishteacher78]

I went to one - my choice in part, parents would have preferred me to go to the Catholic secondary. As a teacher I have worked in two.
I know if I had gone to the Catholic school I would have coasted (even more than I did).
Some people seem to he very against the grammar school system and I'm not sure why. It was the making of my dad (miner's son from council estate in Scotland)and I think that all counties should have that provision. Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.

WooWoo - The Pupil Premium works on the same blunt level as the stats it relates to, though. If a school has a certain % of pupils on FSM you could extrapolate form the vast studies of children living in economic disadvantage as a whole that there would be a percentage level of support needed.

If Pupil premium was handed out on an individual level, it would be wasted in aspirational families who value education whatever their low income. but schools use the money far more generally than that.

DCs school actively encouraged parents to register for pupil premium
as far as I can see it has been used to

• ensure that even poor kids go on school trips (in the past they often did not)
• ensure that all kids get the revision books so the whole class can move along faster
• ensure that the breakfast club for kids from dysfunctional families is always running

my children have not been "allocated" that cash, but have benefitted from it because of the sidewash from the extra funds.

and shock horror there are PP/FSM kids in the top sets

"A grammar school education is probably the only thing the state offers, that is worth having... I expect to get flamed for saying that"

Actually- like many, I won't bother. Your level of misconception is such that, like appealing to an DM reader- it's pointless.

See, I am the great unwashed. My DC's school only achieves about 80% A-C in 5 GCSEs inc Eng and Maths. And only about the same in the Eng Bacc, blunt weapon though it is.

Sorry. I must retreat . I so wish there was a grammar to improve on this lamentable state of affairs, even though my youngest stands little chance of passing the 11+ for it. If only he were on FSM....

It would not be wasted in aspiration all families that value education at all if their children needed the extra support of a couple of one to one sessions a week, or needed the money to be able to join their classmates on a residential trip that their family can't afford.

I see this situation every day, there are children getting support that they don't need so that a school can prove that they have spent money improving a child's potential and I see children who need more support not get it simply because their name isn't on the FSM list.

Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the thread with my feelings on the pupil premium, so ill get back to grammar schools!

I agree that access to grammar school is flawed, but I think that's because some areas don't have enough places and some areas have too many.

If all children had access to a grammar school if they would benefit from it and would suit that type of education, then none would be missing out. If all grammar schools aimed to take the top 5-7% of children whose parents actually want a grammar education for that child, then the effect on other schools would be minimal. If all other schools offerd enough academic subjects and stream properly, then all children will get the education they deserve and there won't be a problem.

I think the issue at the moment is that grammar schools in GS areas take too many children, and areas that only have SS or no GS at all don't have enough places for the children that would benefit from them and are suitable for them.

Erebus
but your school has such a dampener on house prices
if only the results of mine were anywhere near as "bog standard"

WooWooOwl
What perfect entry criteria would you set for a grammar school test to ensure that you got

• the best musicians
• the best artists
• the best athletes
• the best linguists
• the best creative writers

as I see no evidence of any 11+ or even Common Entrance testing for that and without those children, any school is too blinkered for my liking.

"We all want the best for are families, if that means sheltering them from
the "Great Unwashed" for as long as possible so be it"

Thank heavens- honesty!!!!!! How refreshing. Now if only a few more people on the thread could 'fess up, we might get somewhere.

talkin - you know my views on your DC's school: it's a bloody good school, one I'd've chosen for my DC if I hadn't committed to the one we did choose!

woowoo "If all children had access to a grammar school if they would benefit from it and would suit that type of education.." WHAT type of education? why do you believe that a grammar school delivers lessons any different to the top-stream of a comp? Apart from the fact that maybe the comp teacher also has to lead, inspire and teach DC of a lower ability as well in the course of their day. Do you think their minds are somehow contaminated by adjusting the level of teaching, accommodating different groups? I stated way earlier than a lot of my teachers would have been eaten alive, teeth marks and all, by some of the undiagnosed, unmanaged SN that some of the SMs had to deal with when I was at a GS, in the '70s! And we call them 'good' teachers. Why were we 'allowed' these sorts of teachers, many of whom were frankly bats, whereas the SM DC got 'the rest'? How is that a fair use of taxes?

Regarding possible GS DC today, it seems that some are still advocating a segregation of these 'special' children along with their 'special' teachers. Well, as long as we all pay taxes, I think all our DC, bar the odd-ball, out-there hyper-clever DC and the other end of the spectrum, of course, can be well-taught in the same schools! Like we live our lives, in the same workplaces/town centres/pubs/life.

curlew - now you're being naughty. Extra Latin for you....

Talkin, children at grammar schools are not the best at everything. Comps can and do have excellent facilities for musicians, artists, athletes and I'm sure they've produced plenty of great writers and linguists too. In my experience, the facilities are better.

It isn't me who regard the more clever as somehow in a category of their own, a category that requires special treatment, zzz.

So I shall 'grate away'.

But it is an appropriate use of quote marks, zzzz.

There have been plenty of writing and grammatical usages on this thread that have grated with me, I can assure you

OK. If it is not to keep them away from "the great unwashed", please will someone tell me why clever children are best educated separately from average and less clever ones? Because I just can't see it.

I do sometimes wonder whether people think "comprehensive" and "mixed ability" are synonyms. That might explain some concerns, I suppose.

WooWoo
so you can see that a comp with all of the bright and talented kids including those whose skills are not measured in the 11+ will always be a better place than a narrowly selective school of any type

'special' is such a misused term in education that it should really be typed '"special'"

my kids prefer to be called "speckle" - but then they are offensively bright (it offends me how self motivated DD is to be top of year at her comp)

I think "special" is entirely appropriate when the term is being hijacked by the parents of very academically bright children who seem to begrudge any funding going to children with AEN and think that their child's right to take GSCE maths at the age of 8 is on a par with another child's inability to access the curriculum............

Too right.
Special = in a wheelchair, needs specific facilities in place and has disintegrating hand joints so cannot write
"special" = often hothoused, mollycoddled and tutored and not half as clever as mummy thinks

zzzzz
how would a top set child end up in the middle set?
kids are tested in every subject every term and set accordingly

a kid in DDs year has very poor speech and it took a while for the staff to realise how bright he actually is
he's now in top sets with intensive speech therapy in between
the staff who deal with that are a separate team from the curriculum one so are not distracted

zzzzzz
"Just as there are parents who genuinely believe that no child passes the 11+ without rigorous and arduous coaching, there are some that fail to understand how difficult it is to never be challenged. For those children grammar school should be the answer."

What about the 1 in 500 "gifted" child who cannot pass the 11+ because they are only "gifted" in one area? The high achieving top 10% GS child gets a place whereas the someone in the .5% in one area doesn't. This child can only be challenged at a comprehensive, for them, failing the 11+ is not the answer - comprehensive school is the answer.