Private schools use unqualified teachers - but are they really any good?

[Talkinpeace]

One of the justifications for Free Schools etc being allowed to use non qualified teachers is that Private schools do so and get great results.

However, are the great results because those non qualified people are really better?
or is it because they are handed heavily selected cohorts to teach?

This can be tested.

Take two schools of similar size and age range, one that is fee paying and the other that is fully comprehensive
say Eton and Wallingford school in Oxfordshire (fast search for 11-18 leafy)
and swap the whole of the teaching staff for a fortnight - to run a whole timetable cycle.
TAs and support staff would stay put so the places kept going
but the whole staff from each school would teach the other's timetable.

How would they cope?

My hypothesis
The state school teachers would be pleasantly surprised that a lot of the private school kids were pretty normal.
The state school teachers would get some good ideas about how to make extension work more useful
Some of the private school teachers would rise to the challenge and come up with new ideas
most would be eaten alive by lower ability kids.

So, could a TV company make it happen?
What are your hypotheses?

Teaching qualifications from abroad are not recognised in the UK so technically many of the 'unqualified' teachers in the Uk are actually qualified (some, highly qualified) in their country of origin.

As an 'unqualified teacher' myself, when I investigated gaining QTS, It was allowable for these teachers to work in a state school for up to 4 years of living in the UK and then, no matter how much of a proven track record they have, without the 'piece of paper' they are no longer eligible to work in the state sector. If a teacher did even one day supply in a state school 4 years ago and then worked in the independent sector, they are not eligible to work in the state sector. When I first moved to the UK, It was possible to gain QTS by doing various competency tests over a period of 3-6 months depending on the level of your degrees, but the school in which you were working had to support you in doing this. Sadly, I was not in such a school...in fact my request was point blank refused (go figure!) this was also not an option available for teachers working on supply.

So now, a PGCE is required to gain QTS, many schools are not willing to support working teachers in gaining a PGCE because of the cost of covering them when they need to be absent from the classroom, and many teachers are not willing or able to lose a salary for a year to gain the PGCE, especially when it actually doesn't add anything to their skills, or actually help them gain a better job than the one they already have. So state schools lose out.

That said, I agree with the poster who said there are good and bad teachers with and without the 'qualifications'. However, in most independent schools anyone who doesn't cut the mustard, doesn't last long, but it is harder to get rid of a poor teacher in a state school due to red tape. Unless of course, their 4-year 'window' has closed!

So, Schmedz - it's all about saving money, then, isn't it? You weren't good enough to justify the expense of keeping you on for longer, not when there were other perfectly good, cheap people out there waiting to replace you.

Obviously, this problem will be solved by allowing state schools to employ unqualified teachers. Not.

I have a dyslexic child in an independent school. Of course like all dyslexic children she has the problem that some teachers, even qualified ones, simply have no idea of her weaknesses and strengths and her learning style, let alone how it affects her performance in class and on paper, even though the Learning Support teacher has briefed them. The amount of time devoted to Specific Learning Difficulties on teacher training courses is inadequate (I base that on the opinion of my nieces friends who have just qualified) BUT at least they have some awareness and knowledge. The worst experience my DD had was with a non qualified teacher who was not going to admit her to (at a less selective than her previous school) an A level course because he judged at interview that she would not be capable of coping with it at A level (contradicting her previous schools reference). She is not quick processing and framing her answers in interview, but given time she gives sound answers. This was pointed out to him but apparently he remained adamant, and was simply unwilling to take it into consideration. Thankfully he was leaving and got overuled by the other subject teachers. She just got 100% of the UMS marks at AS level, the only one in the year to do so in that subject. He was Gove's wet dream, ex army officer and with undoubted enthusiasm for his subject but with 10% of pupils having SpLDs that is a very significant area of ignorance.

Unqualified teachers have been a very small minority in my DDs' independent schools but actually have been responsible for the majority of such incidents arising out of ignorance.

I dont think I am confusing un qualified with qualified from abroad.

As the poster above points out, teaching does not recognise the qualifications of highly experienced overseas teachers, so unless the school will support them many can only work in the private sector.

schmedz that is very similar to te French teacher's situation.

She has taught successfully in the UK for years at both GCSE and A level. She has been HoD for a number of years because her vision is one her current school values and her administration is impeccable.

Her track record is unimpeachable.

I cannot see on what planet she needs to go to college for a year to prove her competence. And Lord knows how she should be expected to afford that.

Yes, but wordfactory, she hasn't taught in state schools which have to accept all comers, whatever their behaviour or ability. What makes you think she could make the transition seamlessly from one type of school to absolutely any other? Also, has she taught in a variety of private schools, or stayed for years in just the one? And has she really applied to many/any state schools, or is she just assuming it will all be too much hassle and too expensive either for her or the school? Or does she think she deserves to go straight into a Head of Department role with similar pay levels to those she received before and therefore wouldn't actually countenance anything the state schools might be in a position to offer her? Or would she actually rather find a job in another private school?

Frankly, I KNOW that if a state school thinks someone is a good enough catch and it can find a way to employ them, it will.

And I therefore know this French teacher could find a job in a state school.

(Provided she's good enough and has the skills they need for a price a state school can afford...).

We all have to jump through hoops sometimes though.... (thinks back angrily to having to qualify as a fellow of the HEA).

And yes - this - her vision is one her current school values - doesn't automatically mean that she could leap in and be awesome just anywhere. She may well be able to - no reason why not - but it shouldn't be assumed as a given.

I had a native French speaking, unqualified, French teacher at school and she was appalling.

Why are European or say American or Australian teaching Qualifications
not reconsigned as being equal to PGCE OR QTS level. Surely the state
system is losing out on some gifted teachers from other countries.

Stupid that is a "UNION SHOP" All teachers should be qualified with exams
and training but should someone with the relevant French or Australian
teaching qualifications and 10 years teaching be stopped from teaching in
U.K state schools.

Well, French and Australian schools are quite different, no? No GCSEs, A Levels, and so on?

"You wouldn't want someone on the road without a driving licence even if they'd been driving from the age of 5. Same thing."

Point of detail: all those who held a provisional driving licence during WW2 were given full licences without test (backlog too big). So, from 1945 onwards, UK roads had many, many 'unqualified' licence-holders, and it's only in e last 10 years or so that they began to die out in numbers. Also, given international reciprocity rules, there will remain a proportion who do not meet UK test standards - biggest influx began about the time the wartime generation stopped driving.

Just as there was never a golden age when all teachers were qualified, neither has there ever been a golden age when all drivers were - and for the latter there is little prospect (whilst UK remains in EU) that there ever will be.

"Why are European or say American or Australian teaching Qualifications
not reconsigned as being equal to PGCE OR QTS level. Surely the state
system is losing out on some gifted teachers from other countries"

They are. Rules changed in 2012, and Aus/Can/NZ/US teachers no longer need additional assessment/training.

Soul2000 - are you not aware that there are quite a lot of NZ and Australian qualified teachers teaching in both our state and our private schools? American teachers can also do this, although I doubt they do it in similar numbers. Clearly it is easier to do this than you appear to think. Do we really want to make it easier for those too dim to work out that they already can do this?

Edith. well That's God..

Did you really mean God?

Well, He moves in mysterious ways....

Well that's Good then... God Might think differently though...

Argh, if you were allowed one improvement to the education system that anyone would really think that allowing unqualified teachers in to schools would be the thing that would make the biggest difference. At worst like in Al-Madinah it could be detrimental. At best it's irrelevant.

It's highly unlikely that gifted teachers without quals would be queuing up to work in difficult schools. If they really wanted to do that they could.

But Edith the point remains that it's better for everyone if drivers are licensed.

Better for them too.

Also better for teachers to have a qual.

There are lots of teachers on mumsnet who came to teaching late but they still got the qual sometimes on the job.

Who's to decide WHICH foreign teaching qualifications are good enough, soul2000? Would you be disappointed if, say, there were no automatic right for a Nigerian or Indian qualified teacher to come into a UK state school to teach without requiring further tests, training and assessment? Or would you want to check the quality of the teaching qualification offered out there, first, before you accepted it? And for people coming over for their first job in a UK school, would you just as happily rely on their foreign references and assurances that they are safe to work with children as you would UK ones? Who could be held accountable if their assurances turned out to be lies, given that the referees don't even live in the UK? Would it be unreasonable to fear public reaction if they did something they shouldn't and the press had a field day, as it inevitably would? Surely you would want some kind of quality control, where the validity and quality of a candidate's qualifications and work experience could be adequately tested? Or is that all Union protectionism?

Also, I don't think that lack of gifted teachers qualified or not is the biggest prob. Retention is an issue, workload, behaviour, lack of support, nutty government initiatives like free schools...

It's just so insignificant.

The mention of David Beckham proves how stupid this argument is . The notion that he'd want to reach and it's only his lack of a Pgce.

Ha!

So if all the teachers in all the private schools are QTS qualified, why the DfE press release stating that they are not ?
and that Free and Academies schools should emulate private schools by employing them?

Or is it really about ways to undercut the pay of qualified teachers in the State sector (upon which over 90% of the country relies) and the Unions who try to protect their members' rights (in admittedly not always good ways)?