Private schools use unqualified teachers - but are they really any good?

[Talkinpeace]

One of the justifications for Free Schools etc being allowed to use non qualified teachers is that Private schools do so and get great results.

However, are the great results because those non qualified people are really better?
or is it because they are handed heavily selected cohorts to teach?

This can be tested.

Take two schools of similar size and age range, one that is fee paying and the other that is fully comprehensive
say Eton and Wallingford school in Oxfordshire (fast search for 11-18 leafy)
and swap the whole of the teaching staff for a fortnight - to run a whole timetable cycle.
TAs and support staff would stay put so the places kept going
but the whole staff from each school would teach the other's timetable.

How would they cope?

My hypothesis
The state school teachers would be pleasantly surprised that a lot of the private school kids were pretty normal.
The state school teachers would get some good ideas about how to make extension work more useful
Some of the private school teachers would rise to the challenge and come up with new ideas
most would be eaten alive by lower ability kids.

So, could a TV company make it happen?
What are your hypotheses?

ElizabethJonesMartin
Do you have evidence to confirm that the staff were properly qualified, bearing in mind that the Ofsted report states the exact opposite on page 6.

The Westminster faculty list is very pretty but I see no evidence of PGCEs (although I have no doubt that many of them are there)

If private schools use more qualified staff than state schools, could you explain the quotes and rationale in the DfE press release I linked at 15:54

Agree, straggle.

It's a ridiculous red herring like the thing about blazers.

There's a very odd assumption that there are hundreds of incredibly gifted would-be teachers just dying to get in to difficult schools and turn them around. It's nonsense.

The vast majority of brilliant would-be teachers get themselves a PGCE just as the vast majority of would-be doctors get themselves to med school.

The argument about whether CAD or JO would be allowed to teach in a state school is completely irrelevant - they could if they wanted to. They don't.

And I repeat again - it's not lack of teaching qualifications that is either hindering state schools or helping private schools.

It is completely irrelevant.

But being a poetry prof and a published poet, and being able to give lectures to students on your own poetry still doesn't mean you can necessarily teach year 7. Maybe Duffy can, maybe she'd be great - but that's still no argument for saying someone who's good at something is good at the day to day grind of teaching the whole subject.

I know poets who lecture and teach at universities, I wouldn't like to say they'd necessarily be the best people to teach years 7 to 11 everything on the GCSE syllabus and also do everything else a teacher has to do.

She gives lectures in unis and to GCSE students . Nope, lecturing is not teaching. It is always an eye opener for PHD students or ex lecturers turning up on training placements and being told you have to change your style, otherwise you won't pass and OFSTED would grade you inadequate. Most don't last. Nope, you still have not convinced me. Giving a talk to my DD yes, but that is very different to actually teaching.

If unqualified teachers in private schools are so good, Missbopeep, how come I have spent the last two years visiting private schools after my school day ends, helping them teach the bloody subject they have been employed to do? One case example: person from a well known, networking company who was a CIO of one branch who wanted more family time (their words) employed to be Head of ICT at a London private school. They are unqualified as a teacher but ex-company looks good to parents. He is so woeful; he didn't even know there was more than one exam board, all his fancy initiatives at interview have not worked as he did not have his 'teacher hat on' and has struggled with resources, despite me giving him everything I had, to name but a few issues. Things are so bad, a qualified, part-time teacher has now been appointed at extra cost to help out. Needless to say, this is all being kept hidden from the parents. If the Head had bothered to advertise instead of trying to save money and employing friend of husbands', all this could have been averted. This is only one example of many.

And it's absolute bunkum to suggest that the fact that Al Madinah was shut down is a sign that the system is working.

This was a brand new school built at great expense to the taxpayer and the Govt promise is that free schools would do a better job than existing schools or provide more choice.

This is if we ignore the fact that the majority of free schools are faith schools and therefore, as in this case, set out to educate primarily one faith in one way (yet use ALL of our taxes). NOt to mention what this does for social cohesion!

Millions of pounds have been invested in free schools that would have been better invested in improving existing schools.

If the cracks in free schools are already appearing what sort of chaos will we have a few years down the line and with the poor kids who end up graduating from these schools.

Although a qualification doesn't necessarily make a good teacher, they have at least completed some training and been observed to be reasonably competent.

I'm a teacher and have learned mostly through experience , however completing the pgce ,focussed my thinking and gave me experience .

This experience was needed;now I work with children who for various reasons are struggling to remain in mainstream education . This does require skills which go way beyond subject knowledge, not knowing what you are doing in terms of child development and learning could really be damaging to these kids.

And quite clearly the reason why schools like Al Madinah are employing unqualified teachers is not because they're so gifted, it's because they're cheap and moldable or because they couldn't get any others!

The sort of unqualified teachers that private schools end up with i.e. rugby coaches or A Level Latin teachers are very unlikely to be beating down the doors to get into difficult state schools.

It's such a ridiculous notion.

It's the sort of logic that says all private schools have lawns therefore lawns must be the reason why their results are better therefore if all state schools had lawns then results would improve.

Oh, and also, all teachers of state schools must be stupid and incompetent because they hadn't realized that lawns are what are required to improve results.

I bet most good private schools use qualified experienced teachers. It's only those ridiculous free schools run by people with agendas outside education who think it doesn't matter. I can't remember the name but that school in Yorkshire or Derby that's just been closed. Where the people running it clearly didn't have the first clue about what a school is.

That's the one. I should read the whole thread.

The lack of understanding that schools do not exist in a bubble is staggering.

It would also be like assuming that the problem with lower life expectancy in northern towns is because of the doctors so if we moved all the Surrey doctors to Salford then life expectancy would go up.

But there isn't an assumption that doctors are the cause and solution for all health problems so why is there an assumption that teachers are the cause and solution for all problems with education?

And can you imagine anyone making the following jumps of logic about doctors:

some qualified doctors are crap therefore it would be better if doctors were not qualified

No?? Why? Because it does not follow. It's nonsense and illogical.

whendidyoulast, i knew that all I needed was a good lawn...

Yep - that's definitely what state schools need.

Oh, and horses.

Get them riding horses and watch those results rocket.

Whereas nobody seems able to make a connection between good results and oh, er, selection by ability and ability to pay, supportive parents, small class sizes, aspiration...

No, it's lawns and horses that make the difference.

And blazers and unqualified staff .

I'd like to put Gove under a lawn am I allowed to say that?!

All the independent schools round here use qualified teachers, though see below re use of unqualified in both sectors for sport/music.
Half of our locals are not selective on education, rest are.
Many of the teachers have also taught in state schools prior to working in independent.

Many state schools are selective - either by academia (grammar schools) or finances (catchment areas)

State schools can use unqualified, in terms of teaching quals, too - many do for sport and music for example.

Hulababy
How do you know that all of the independents use qualified teachers?
There is no requirement for them to,
you cannot tell from the school websites
(remember that BA, MA, BSc, MSc, PhD and Dr are not proof of a teaching qualification ...)
and I refer again to the quotes on the DfE website from private schools specifically stating that they use non qualified teachers

Richard Cairns, Head master of Brighton College, said: At Brighton College, this year’s Sunday Times Independent School of the Year, we have 39 teachers without formal teaching qualifications, including me!

Katy Ricks, Head teacher of top independent school Sevenoaks said As an untrained teacher myself

West London Free School has appointed the former Head of Classics at a renowned independent school, as their classics teacher.

"This is if we ignore the fact that the majority of free schools are faith schools and therefore, as in this case, set out to educate primarily one faith in one way (yet use ALL of our taxes). NOt to mention what this does for social cohesion!"

We should ignore that because it is totally untrue.

It's around 25%: www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/creationist-sect-among-100plus-faith-applicants-for-free-schools-8501794.html

But there isn't an assumption that doctors are the cause and solution for all health problems so why is there an assumption that teachers are the cause and solution for all problems with education?

I don't think anybody is saying that teachers are the cause and solution for all problems with education. I think the argument is that some teachers (qualified or not) are good and others are poor.

My children have had some fantastic teachers in the state and private sector (all qualified) but they have also had some very poor teachers. During the time that they have had very poor teachers I have been able to supplement their learning myself, but what about children whose parents can't / won't do that? Ultimately, those children need very good teachers.

'those children need very good teachers.'

Of course. And beyond state education there is no further safety net for pupils as there is when private schools fail. Teacher training provides whole terms of valuable, supervised practice, but of course the learning shouldn't stop there and there should be CPD too. Teaching is very complex and stressful especially to mixed ability groups and in larger class sizes. Half of teachers leave the profession within five years and many are weeded out during the PGCE year or the first six months. The idea of complete rookies, unsupervised and stressed out beyond belief, teaching my child then leaving after the first month is so irresponsible in terms of both those employees and children.

Talkinpeace - qualifications inc teaching quals listed within the schools prospectus or paperwork and on websites. As I've been looking recently for dd it's been something of great interest to me. Generally not hard to find out ESP if visiting then outside of open days - you get to ask.

It's QTS that I look for. And other teaching quals. I know which quals generally mean teaching quals after all.

'Although a qualification doesn't necessarily make a good teacher, they have at least completed some training and been observed to be reasonably competent.'

But unqualified teachers in private schools worth their salt aren't just shoved in a classroom and left to get on with it. They're trained, mentored, observed, observe other staff, supported and generally put through a PGCE.

I'm wondering why it is that so many posters are banging on about Medinah? It's ONE free school that has run into issues,for reasons in addition to poor teaching.

Meanwhile there are hundreds of state schools put into special measures for failing their pupils. The UK has some of the poorest literacy and numeracy results amongst school leavers in the developed world.

20% of children leave school unable to read, write or understand basic numeracy at an acceptable level.

This is after 11 years' education by qualified teachers.

No one starts a thread about this- just the usual private/state school envy.