Private schools use unqualified teachers - but are they really any good?

[Talkinpeace]

One of the justifications for Free Schools etc being allowed to use non qualified teachers is that Private schools do so and get great results.

However, are the great results because those non qualified people are really better?
or is it because they are handed heavily selected cohorts to teach?

This can be tested.

Take two schools of similar size and age range, one that is fee paying and the other that is fully comprehensive
say Eton and Wallingford school in Oxfordshire (fast search for 11-18 leafy)
and swap the whole of the teaching staff for a fortnight - to run a whole timetable cycle.
TAs and support staff would stay put so the places kept going
but the whole staff from each school would teach the other's timetable.

How would they cope?

My hypothesis
The state school teachers would be pleasantly surprised that a lot of the private school kids were pretty normal.
The state school teachers would get some good ideas about how to make extension work more useful
Some of the private school teachers would rise to the challenge and come up with new ideas
most would be eaten alive by lower ability kids.

So, could a TV company make it happen?
What are your hypotheses?

OP, how would you 'encourage kids to go to their local school'? I agree with you, for what it's worth, that parents being able to choose schools, rather than just send their kids to the nearest school, is divisive and creates sink schools. But gentle encouragement is not going to persuade middle class, aspirational parents to send their kids to the nearest school if it isn't up to the standards they are looking for. The government would have to withdraw parental choice - and I can't see that happening...

I havent read all of the posts. However I think some parents love to think that the privates are full of unqualified teachers who have it easy and that private teachers would be 'eaten alive' in the state system.

Has anyone questioned why the state system pupils would do that?

I have also seen many many posts from the smug middle England parents having tutored their children into the grammar schools stating they dont believe in private education....

Some of even questioned the intelligence of people going private when the state is so good.... Maybe to you it is - but around here its NOT

Well of course I can't from that list - it doesn't tell me what I need to know. You need to see the actual school info of their staff to tell you who are/are not. It was a question I specifically asked, it was important to me at the time.

It isn't that long ago when the teacher's pay scale for state schools included a non-qualified strand.

And teachers who qualified abroad were certainly legally able in state schools with no additional qualifications were also permitted in the last few years. I hadn't realised this has changed - when was that?

TBH the quailfied/unqualified bit isn't actually y main concern = it is those who have NO EXPERIENCE and poor subject knowledge that is the real issue. I know of secondary school teachers, in the state sector, who regularly do not teach the subject they are trained to teach in. This is perfectly legal and allowed - but is it good for our children to have a science teacher taking GCSE English, or an Art teacher taking GCSE Maths classes? I even know of one school where the French teacher is not actually trained to teach French (they are trained to teach a different MFL instead) - and actually has no high qualification than GCSE in the subject. They are still teaching exam classes though.

Because this DOES happen in state secondaries a fair amount of the time - and not just in th past, it happens now.

Just thinking back to the last year that my youngest spent in a state primary school (normal maintained school under govt control). They had a teaching assistant doing the teachers job unassisted for half a day every single week (the teachers PPA time) and sometimes for several days (teacher on various training / meetings) and when the teacher was off sick the teaching assistant took the class on her own for two full weeks.
The teaching assistant was not a qualified teacher and I don't even know if she was educated beyond high school level.
State maintained schools it would seem are not always following the rules and regulations.

LittleSiouxieSue
I think it is a myth that there are large numbers of unqualified teachers in independent schools. There are a few specialists but in the main they are qualified and you can test this out by looking at the staff lists at many top independent schools.

The head of Brighton college stated that he has 39 unqualified staff in his school alone.

And please link to a private school website that shows the Qualified Teacher Status of its faculty
(remember that BA, MA, BSc, MSC, DPhil, PhD and Dr are not teaching qualifications - and most MA/MSc names just mean they went to Oxbridge, not that they have a real masters)

Free schools are a silly diversion of funds away from the schools that need support.
There is no place for exclusive religious schools in taxpayer funding.

Norudeshit
You are utterly correct, normal state schools push the rules to the utter limits because TAs are much cheaper than experienced teachers.
The answer to that, surely, is to ensure that normal schools are properly funded, not to buy buildings for gimmick schools?

Talkin, I agree that free schools are a diversion of funds.

But I also think the qualified/unqualified is a diversion from the debate about free schools.

whendidyoulast
My real concern with the qualified/unqualified issue is that (as per the press release) that "freedom" now applies to academies - ie 2/3 of all state secondary schools.
Which is far more likely to lead to unaccountable schools hiring cheap fresh graduates than it is to lead to "excellence"
because Gove does not give a shit about state schools beyond wanting to break LEAs and Unions

and he wants to run the whole country, not just schools ....

whendidyoulast What sort of choice is it if you have 3 faith schools on your doorstep and one run by the army

Ad what sort of a choice is it if all the schools in your area are run by the same banker turned anthropologist academy trust that wants to impose an untested curriculum taught by cheap inexperienced teachers?

most MA/MSc names just mean they went to Oxbridge, not that they have a real masters)

Are you saying that they lying about their qualifications?

Anyone who puts MA or MSc after their name has a masters. Unless they are lying.

My DD has an MSc but she didn't go to Oxbridge so what you are on about is a complete mystery!

Missbopeep
You really, really need to read up on what an Oxbridge MA means.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts_(Oxbridge_and_Dublin)
ie absolutely nothing.
All Oxbridge BA degrees are converted to a Masters 4 years after graduation - even if the person has sat on the dole

It used to be considered good manners to put MA Oxon. or MA Cantab so that people could tell the difference between a 'nominal' Masters and a true piece of work.

On the contrary- I think it is you who needs to be careful what you say. If on a public forum you are insinuating that a named school has teachers who are not being honest or open about their degrees that is a serious allegation and I'm not sure where it leaves you. Consider libel perhaps?

The staff list for Brighton College gives a list of staff with their qualifications alongside- either BA, BSc, MA, MSc etc. It doesn't denote the university awarding the degree. Why should it?

So I fail to see how you can assume that some are from Oxbridge - and are therefore in your opinion not 'real' masters degrees.

I don't set much store by Wiki anyway but you need to learn to read more carefully. According to Wiki an MA may be awarded after 6-7 years ( 21 terms) employment at the university if the person is considered worthy of a higher degree. Presumably in those 21 terms they will have had to convince their peers that they have done research or taught at the appropriate level.

You are posting rubbish.

missbopeep
The head of Brighton College stated that he employs 39 staff who are not qualified as teachers.
There is a HUGE difference between qualified in an academic subject and qualified as a teacher.
I'm sure their academic qualifications are lovely, but that does not make them teachers.

And having grown up in an Oxbridge house, MA's are handed to all graduates after a couple of years.
No mention of teaching in the Wiki or in this article
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8318460/Oxbridge-students-MA-degrees-under-threat.html

talkinpeace you are aware that people can be awarded a masters degree from other universities, aren't you?

I think it's still usual to put Oxon or Cantab. If it doesn't I see no reason not to accept that it actually is an MA or MSC in good faith.

However, this debate seems to have got a bit silly now so I'm off to enjoy the sunshine.

Missbopeep Oxford and Cambridge award graduates MAs after a few years, no matter what they've been doing in the meantime. Perhaps don't be so rude to people who do know what they're talking about?

You can graduate with any class of BA in any subject, be unemployed and do nothing, and still get your MA in the post a few years later. I know because it irks me that Oxbridge dp got for free what I had to write a thesis for!

cleofatra
Very, and many people work bloody hard for them.
Friends who got theirs at Imperial are often a bit about the folks from the ivory towers who got theirs for diddly squat.

But the real issue is that the only teaching degrees are BEd and PGCE
all other degrees are academic subject knowledge, not teaching.

Therefore having them does not make that person a qualified teacher

and if penny pinching academies and free schools start hiring fresh graduates without having to let them register as teachers (with the pension and union rights that entails) it will not be good for education.

Ok , here I will admit that I have taught in both schools and at Universities and can say that these days, University teaching is pretty much like school teaching IME

Miss Bo Peep. Good grief, are you also anti climate change and the world being round. No one is posting rubbish, will you believe it from the Oxford students newspaper www.cherwell.org/news/2011/02/17/instant-oxford-mas-under-fire or just google and you get any amount of supporting evidence because that is what happens....... Or just ask an Oxford graduate.

The Brighton College Head clearly has a bee in his bonnet, but his school, though a good school that works well for many DCs, isn't exactly competing in a big pool is it? At all the London Day Schools the vast majority of teachers are qualified, they may not list PGCE on their staff lists but I know that to be the case, because I have had DDs there, have friends who teach there and have discussed it with two Heads (both of whom had PGCEs, in one case studied after they had spent a few years in industry).

Frankly for any graduate intending to teach it is a no brainer that you would do a PGCE (I had a place on a course myself but my business employer came up with an offer I couldn't refuse) because you are not just more employable but also have had a chance to learn your profession. My friend who has a first from Oxford ( converted to an MA ) and a real Masters in Business and a career teaching in a Business School and making a fortune facilitating Boards in their planning with me because we were good at it, still felt the need to study a PGCE when she switched into teaching children Why? The confidence and expertise to be able to teach languages to all children, whatever their ability level, whatever their learning needs, well.

Oh, and also that University teachers are now expected to complete a teaching qualification during their terms.

I still think it is rather odd to be taking pot shots at a school on a public forum. OP you have absolutely no idea which teachers out of the many are not 'qualified' and where those who have Masters degrees obtained those degrees.

You must have a pretty boring life to get so worked up about all of this because it's way off the original point.

Brighton College has a superb reputation and I can't see any parent paying those fees if there was any doubt about the ability of the teaching staff.

In my experience as a teacher in independent school, the staff who are 'unqualified' are most likely to be those teaching music ( music colleges have their own teaching courses), drama, sport and possibly art/ ceramics etc by highly talented people.

It matters because if penny pinching academies and free schools start hiring fresh graduates without having to let them register and qualify as teachers (with the pension and union rights that entails) it will not be good for education

DH works in schools and teaches parts of PGCE courses.
I have children going through the mangled mess that is the GCSE system.

It matters that the people teaching our kids understand how children learn as well as understanding their subject.

Sadly not to Mr Gove it doesn't

And you must have a pretty uninformed life to tell people they're talking rubbish on a subject you know nothing about! How rude!