Admissions - what constitutes 'adopted?'

[Twistlethant]

Hoping one of the admission experts will be able to help with this one.
A friend has adopted a child from abroad. She's now at the stage where she has to apply for primary school. The child currently attends a nursery attached to the primary school my friend would like her daughter to go to - only thing is she's not that near, certainly not in catchment, at any rate.
Friend was under the impression that as child is adopted she'll be top of the priority list and get in - and consequently only needs to put this one school on the form. I thought I'd read somewhere that 'adoption' for these purposes only applies to children who were in local authority care, not overseas adoptees or step -children.
Can anyone out there clarify this? Needless to say, I have already advised her not to put just this one school on the form and include a couple of realistic local options she'd be prepared to accept, just in case.

Can I ask for more detail about the children adopted directly from their birth family (who don't qualify for the new admissions priority)? OP I'm sorry to go off on a tangent but the experts seem to be on this thread atm!

AFAIK if a child is removed from their parents at the hospital (and this is relevant to me because I am being assessed to adopt with a Local Authority which sadly has to do this a lot) they can't have an adoption order from the court until they are 6 weeks old. So if prospective adoptive parents were to take them straight away this would be via 'fostering to adopt' and their status would for this period at least be foster parents. In other words my question is how could a child ever not qualify?

My local council makes it very clear in their admissions info that children adopted from overseas do not benefit from the change in priority admission criteria. Not necessarily fair, but at least they spell this out so people like the OP's friend aren't under any illusions.

I mentioned to a "friend" last week that DD might go to a school that is a little way away and would normally be out of catchment. She got really cross that DD didn't "need" it and it was so unfair. I asked her how she would determine who "needed" this small help up the ladder, given that all adopted children have had something pretty awful happen in their live such that they cannot live with their birth parents. Did she really want to go down the route of "you were removed at birth and lived with lovely foster carers, so you don't need priority admissions; you were exposed to drugs in utero then severly neglected by your birth mother for a number of years and then taken into care so you can have priority admissions"? She did at least have the decency to look a bit embarrassed.

Thanks, tiggytape that's very helpful

Lots of people don't realise the difference between Statemented SEN and SEN and SN.

Our LEA told us they do not statement for physical disabilities, which meant we had no chance of getting priority for wheelchair-using dd, despite the fact that our catchment school was a) on several stories without a lift b) destined to be a building site over the next few years.

They did have a (lower) category for medical needs but when we applied to the one local school dd would actually get around we were turned down because it was not on the council's lists of schools with disabled access. We asked why and it turned out they did not have full provision for visually impaired children. Because clearly a child who has one disability must have them all or they can't be properly disabled.

So in line with this reasoning they admitted dd to another school with no wheelchair access...

Fortunately we were able to persuade the appeals panel that this was not a sensible way of looking at things.

The rule about no priority for children adopted from overseas strikes me as equally bizarre.

So if a child on top of all the usual difficulties associated with attachment/adoption has also had to cope with getting used to a new language and a new culture, then that somehow makes them less in need of support?

and adds an extra for good measure

I have a friend who had a problem under Kinship fostering. She took on her sister's children when both their parents died. But as it was Kinship she doesn't qualify under the adoption rules to get them into the same school as her children; and the way our LA defines siblings she doesn't qualify that way either. She was lucky she got them all into the same school anyway.

cory - The rules do not prevent such children being given priority if the school wishes. They simply stipulate that top priority goes to looked after and previously looked after children. A child adopted in this country who was not previously looked after does not get top priority. But the school is perfectly at liberty to have an admissions category for adopted children including those adopted from abroad, although I don't know of any school that does so.

Prior to the recent changes top priority only went to looked after children. You did not automatically get priority for being previously looked after so no adopted children got priority.

I have a rather complicated question and I wonder if anyone can help? I live in Vietnam and have adopted two Vietnamese children. Both were adopted before Vietnam ratified The Hague Convention. After 5 wonderful years here my job has now been transferred back to the uk and I am waiting for settlement visas to come through for the children (fingers crossed). As I adopted pre Hague my adoptions are not recognised in the Uk and once I return I will have to re adopt DD and DS.
I hope to return to the UK in time forDS to start reception. I have applied for schools but was rejected from my first choice as we were out of the catchment area at the date of the application, Now I am trying to appeal. If my children were 'looked after' ie had been adopted from the local authority they would automatically have priority due to their looked after status. Children who are adopted internationally do not come under this rule. However, if the uk government does not recognise the adoption and I have to re adopt thru the local authority ca n I argue somehow that the children are 'looked After'
. Surely the government can't have it all ways? Please can someone help. My parents are going to the appeal for me next week and at the moment have no arguement to back the appeal !

I think the bottom line will be that your children were not adopted from the care system in the UK, and therefore they will not count for priority with respect to school places. I do not think you will win this. They are basically overseas adoptions, not UK care ones.

(Adopter, not admissions expert).

I'm not British and live outside the UK, but we have looked into this as it's quite likely DP may be offered a job in the UK at some point in the future. As I understand it, my DD would not get priority in the UK despite being adopted, because she has never been in the care of a UK local authority. We have had the same problem here, DD is adopted from Saskatchewan and would according to her school have been entitled to extra school funding had she been a local adoption. The difference, I think, is that she would get priority in the UK, but through SEN rather than being adopted.

if the uk government does not recognise the adoption and I have to re adopt thru the local authority can I argue somehow that the children are 'looked After'

No you cannot. They will not have been adopted from the care system. I don't see how that is the government "having it all ways". Children in care or who have been adopted from care get priority over other children. Children who have never been in care in the UK do not get the same priority.

For those asking about the priority for adoption.

I am aware of a family where children were subject to neglect, witnessed domestic violence and more. Children were taken into local authority care and family member happy to care for them. Eldest 2 children already in school. Due to the turmoil they had experienced, family didn't want to unsettle them to change school and happy to take children across city to school. Now adopting children and youngest starting school September. This ruling will enable them to have a place at their siblings school, otherwise they wouldn't as well out of catchment.

Out of curiosity, what is the legal status of a child who has been adopted abroad and has come to the UK and is going to be re-adopted here, but hasn't yet been?
Their adoptive parents aren't yet legally recognised as their parents, so they cannot have parental rights I would assume? But who then does?

I'm just thinking, if it happens to be the LA who temporarily has parental rights (at least on paper), it MIGHT be construed as a 'fostering-to-adopt' situation, where the current carers have every intention to adopt the child, but at the moment, (though they have already adopted the child abroad but this is not recognised here), they are not the child's legal parents, so they are effectively fostering the child (from a legal perspective). I don't know this, I'm asking. But if that were the case, you might be able to argue that for those weeks (or however long it takes) where you live here, and your adopted child is not acknowledged as your adopted child, the child is actually, legally, in local authority care, with you as their carers.

To tag on with another tangent, if I understand correctly, if a mother relinquishes her baby for adoption (it's rare I know, but does happen) then there are usually no care proceedings, so, no care order. The baby may well go to foster carers until the mother can legally sign the relinquishment forms (6 weeks after birth at the earliest), and can then be placed for adoption (but if no suitable adopters are immediately available, more time in FC may pass). In those first 6 weeks the mother and no-one else, has parental rights, though she is not looking after the baby herself. I don't know who has parental rights once the mother has signed the forms, but before baby has been placed for adoption.But in any case, I believe, no court involvement is necessary until for the final adoption order. So whereas baby has been in foster care, practically; legally there was never a care order. Would such a baby be seen as 'adopted from LA care' and hence qualify for school preference (and other 'perks' such as PPP), or not?

If the parents have not followed the correct procedure they have committed a criminal offence, so who has PR is the least of their worries. Assuming they have followed the correct procedure if they are adopting from a Hague Convention country or a country on the designated list the adoption will automatically be recognised in the UK and there is no need to re-adopt. For those countries where it is necessary to re-adopt the child would not be regarded as being in care in the UK at any point.

When a mother relinquishes her baby for adoption it is normal to leave the child with her until the adoptive parents have been identified. If the child is abandoned leaving no-one with PR the LA may have to initiate care proceedings. I don't know if the situation you describe can arise but if it did the child would clearly be in the care of the LA.

As far as I am aware, a relinquished baby adopted under the 2002 act which came in to force Dec 2005 and would count for school purposes. The LA does get involved for finding the adopters. Except in concurrent planning, it is extremely likely the baby would be fostered first. Don't know what would happen if it is kinship care.

In the UK, relinquished children are nearly always placed in care under a section 20 agreement with foster carers until an adoptive parent is found/consent to adoption is done etc. Or of course with concurrent carers. Either way, the baby is in care and will have priority admissions. I've never heard of transferring a baby directly from birth mother to unrelated adopters in this country - of course it may have happened but I've never seen or heard of it happening except in kinship adoptions or concurrent carers picking baby up from the hospital of course.

A child from overseas will not be 'in care' at any point, they won't be the subject of a care order or living with council carers etc