catchment area fiddle - are potential tenants taking the p**s?

[miranda2]

hi all. Really strung up at the moment so thought I'd post here and see what you thought. We rent out our old house, currently to three postgraduates whose contract runs out in June but who might want to extend. I was rung this morning by a guy wanting to rent the house as he was doing a course at the theological college from Sept, and wanted to get his kids into the local school. I explained I couldn't guarantee it would be free, but he could have next say on it after the current tenants. To be nice (I know from these boards how fraught getting school places is ) i said he was welcome to use the address. Fine.
I then rang my tenants to say if they got any letters from the LEA, who to pass them on to. At which point they said they had had a letter with that name on it 10 days ago, and had rung the LEA to say 'not at this address'. So clearly he'd only rung me because the LEA had got onto him about this!! I know its stressful getting places, but this takes the mickey - he only rung me when he got turned down. I suspect he doesn't want to rent it at all, just wants me to say the right things to the LEA. He kept saying he'd pay a deposit and didn't mind not gettin it back if he didn't move in, and he hadn't seen round the inside of the house but didn't seem bothered, just desparate to clinch the deal. I now suspect he doesn't actually want to rent it at all, but is prepared to lose the deposit to get the school place. I'm certainly going to now demand the deposit, which I didn't before, and make it quite clear its non-refundable! But I'm wondering how normal this is or whether it is evidence of total non-trustworthiness (in which case I don't want him as a tenant even if he is legit). I'm sympathetic to the school place thing, but is this normal stressed parent behaviour, or con man behaviour? What do you think?
Sorry, v. long- I'm stressed, I've got to talk to this guy about this soon!!

Well in a way it is a similar thing to what loads of people do here, they put their kids in private primary schools in order to get them into the grammer schools at 11. I am contemplating this as an option for my kids as no-one seems to get into the grammer schools without extra coaching or help these days.

What school is your house near, Miranda? Would I be a good tennant?

Nothing special blu!! that's why I don't really understand this. Its in Durham, near a good state secondary and two of the three good state primaries in Durham. TBH I thought the secondary would be more of a draw - the primaries elsewhere in the town all seem fine. In fact, most primaries seem fine to me! Can't believe it really makes that much of a difference at primary level, I'd have thought the home environment, books etc would be more relevant to how a kid got on at that age. But Durham has lots of private schools too, so the comp being a good one is quite relevant, and the other one at the other end of town is apparantly a bit of a dump.
My ds is 3 this summer - guess I'll ahve to do the primary thing this autumn. Do I just get sent forms automatically or do I have to go and get them? There are two within 10mins walk, both seem fine though one is 'better' acc. to Ofsted and local gossip (and marginally nearer).
I'm sure you'd be a great tenant blu!! But actually my current one (an old friend) has decided as a result of all the fuss today that she almost certainly wants to stay on - she hadn't really thought about it before. So that's one less thing to worrry about...

I'd LOVE to move to Durham (was at Uni in Newcastle)...but don't ask me q's about forms and enrollment - I'm hopeless, see my 'enrollment' thread. But no, I don't thnk you do get forms, I think you have to nip round to the school of your choice.

Well, blu, i'm currently trying to buy another house to do up and let out in the same street as my other one (property ladder with toddlers thread): if it comes off you're welcome to rent it!!

Crunchie, I see your point, but opting for independent education at 4-5 does not involve lying about where you live. I agree every parent has the right to be concerned about their child's education, whether that be moving up or down the housing ladder to be in the catchment area of a "good" school etc, but where I personally draw the line is in deceiving others to get what I want.

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twig, a friend of mine only just got her dd1 into reception at a local primary - and I mean LOCAL it's 4 doors away from her....

I do live in SE London, Twiglett, I nkow exactly what you mean...possibly a different bit...we moved from a posh area to a less posh one to afford a house and also to be near a wider range of primary schools. We still did not get a place in our preferred school because of over-subscribing. I have no idea whether any of the places went to people who lied about their address but if they did I'd be really upset. And all this before we even start the unholy scramble for secondary places. My borough is now the bottom of the secondary league tables for the whole of London.

marina, who's bottom?

twiglett, i think the situation is the same all over london - to the extent that there is no such thing as catchment area any more, it all depends how many siblings etc there are in a given year. we are far from certain at getting a place at either of our two nearest schools - still i can't condone deception. deception just increases the pressure on places, surely?

Miranda2, I think there is a difference between lying about where someone lives and deliberately renting a particular house for the short term in order to 'honestly' claim to live in the catchment area. Even if both are morally wrong, at least the latter is allowable in the rules.

Bundle, it's Greenwich. Terrible SATS this year, a couple of beacon comprehensives which are hugely over-subscribed, a couple of RC secondaries which are excellent but you have to be practising RC to even hope for a place.
There is a shocking percentage of families who feel they have to send their children out of the borough for their secondary education (which will include us in due course I expect).

sneaks in<

Marina, we're thinking of moving to Greenwich in the summer of 2005. Any suggestions for independent schools we can apply to? We obviously can't put our names down for a state school. Any other suggestions? I'm starting to look at house prices now. Wowsers!

sneaks out, while apologizing for hi-jacking the thread

I agree with OliveOil, if it meant my ds getting into a good school as opposed to a bad one, I would definitely lie about my address.

Why worry about taking a place that a child who did live in the catchment area for said school? It's your own child you have to worry about, not someone else's, and I would do my utmost in ANY situation to make sure they got the best.

Because, Icecreamqueen, you would be taking the place of a "catchment" child who would then have a struggle trying to find a school that would accept them as they wouldn't then be a "Priority Admission".

Our school used to have plenty of people with the same attitude as you (due to the excellent reputation of the school) and lots used to lie to get a place - meaning lots of catchment children lost out on places.

Thankfully, Headteacher became wise to this scheme and it is now impossible to lie about your address. The school does take "out of catchment" children BUT ONLY after catchment and siblings attending are secured a place first!

JJ, primary or secondary?
Primary: Pointers in Blackheath, Steiner School in Greenwich, St Olave's in New Eltham, all co-ed, Blackheath High Juniors, girls only. Just over the border in Lewisham Borough but very popular with Greenwich parents are Blackheath Prep and Colfes Junior Department, both co-ed.
Secondary in Greenwich:, well, basically not much in the independent sector, apart from Blackheath High for Girls. Colfes and Eltham College are both good and nearby, but quite a few Greenwich parents end up bussing their children off to well-regarded independent schools further afield such as James Allens Girls School, Alleyns and Dulwich College, all over in Dulwich, City of London Schools (one for boys, one for girls), Westminster and out of town, Bromley High for Girls. There are several good state or foundation grammar schools in Bexley and Bromley, including St Olaves (boys), Chislehurst and Sidcup (mixed), Townley Grammar (girls)and Newstead Woods (girls). Closer to home, Crown Woods and Thomas Tallis are the two best comprehensives with excellent value-added status, and Prendergast School for Girls and Haberdashers' City Technology College are two other excellent and highly sought-after state secondaries.
HTH, I've probably missed at least one out!

Our DD is due to start secondary school in sept we live 200 yards from the best school but she failed her 11+ so can't go there, the 2 secondary schools in the area are about 1 mile away in oppposite directions from our house so it is unlikely that we will get into either of those, we also have paid a high price for our house because it is near the best school in the area we also live on the same road as the best primary school (according to the tables) so paying the high prices hasn't worked for us. Our DD could end up going to a cr@p school up to 10 miles away and then I hear of stories from other mothers at her primary about people swapping addresses, renting and using relatives addresses etc I can't believe that all schools don't ask for child benefit letter or other proof .I know of one family who have swapped council tax bills with their parents so that they can pretend they live in each others houses! Places have not yet been allocated yet but if I find out that the child has got his place on the grounds of this deceit I will shop them as they live further away than us and so will push my child further down the list.
At the moment we are getting our house in good order so that we can hopefully sell it and move near to good secondary school in the area and then hope that we can get in on appeal as we have already applied from our present address or we sell up and move out of area altogether where my DH and I have lived all our lives because there simply isn't enough places in the area never mind good or bad schools.
So in response to whether we should shop people I say yes as you never know if it could affect you or your friends child, you wouldn't like someone to do it to you so don't do it to someone else. In our area you have to have the same address when the child starts the year so you would have to encourage your child to lie about where they lived, what does that educate that child in? lying?

Sorry didn't realise how long that was, its a subject that is very worrying at the moment.

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Even if you don't make the school, the boot sales at Allyns are FAB! I picked up a wonderful courrege (sp) orange wet look maxi coat there for a fiver some years ago. Sold it at Christies Auction. Apart from that, you can get lots of clothing and toy bargains.

Amyway, miranda2 - I think you were right to shop this guy. It's one thing to help a person who will definity be a tenant of yours - I'd do that myself if I felt they were genuine. But as you found out more, this was not the case. It is conning another child out of a place at a good school that's rightfully theirs. At the very least it means they have a longer journey to a different school(all those minutes out of their life add up over the years). At the very worst, it deprives them of their best chance of achievement.

Thanks guys and sorry for hi-jacking miranda2. My son will be in primary school (year 3, I think). I've just ordered the prospectus from Alleyn's Junior school and am working my way through the list of the others.

Thanks again.

The problem in our area with people playing tricks to get into schools is that it is inevitably pushy middle-class parents who have the cash to rent extra houses, buy their way into the area, write assertive appeal letters and generally make a fuss, and then children who genuinely live in the catchment have to accept places wherever else they can be found...but not in the local 'good' school they have been squeezed out of. This tends to exacerbate polarisation of opportunity and education. (I'm NOT saying that only middle-class parents are capable of fighting for what's best for their children, though).

Haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed over it but Miranda, I think you should shop him too. Outrageous.