Private school at primary or secondary - which is the better option?

[Reastie]

I live where there's the 11+ in an affluent area where essentially secondary modern/comprehensive schools are mainly people who fail their 11+ and their parents can't afford private education and are generally rough and not very high expectations/behaviour (I work in education in the area at all types of secondary schools so know this).

DD is only tiny but I'm looking at preschools for her and thinking about primary schools (ideally she'd go to the same preschool as primary).

DH and I have accepted that if she fails her 11+ we will pay for her to go to private school. We will be in a better financial position then to pay for it as we will have paid off the mortgage on a second property and have a monthly rental income (we sound better off than we are in that sentence!).

However, talking to people today and looking around various primary/pre schools I'm now wondering whether we aren't better off paying for private school for her primary on the basis they will give her more individualised care and stretch her better so that she will be more likely to pass the 11+ and so go on to grammar school at secondary (and so we spend money now to save money later IYKWIM). There's always the possibility DD still won't pass it but at least we will have done all we can for her to get there and so I'll feel happy that I've done what I can.

I'm not a pushy parent (although realise I probably sound like I am!) I just want the best for DD and want her to flourish as much as possible.

So, are there any thoughts on paying for private primary on the foundations hopefully it will help get DD through the 11+ and give her more of an individualised education? Is this common? It is worthwhile?

I didn't intend to insult so I'm sorry for that. Advantages I do have a problem with because having unrealistic views or not, I don't agree with people's wealth being a factor in the quality of their children's education. I can understand people who might argue that "I've earned it and if I want to spend it on my children's education....." but we live in a society and a good education should be EVERY childs right so they all have an equal opportunity and not an "advantage" because of their educational background. I don't think parents should have the choice, I think it should be state driven.

Bico.....my children work....one is a florist, the other works in an office...I've had a vasectomy reversal and we're trying to conceive (I think you call it ttc)

'If you earn more than this magic £35k cut-off point (which most families do, by the way) then you get a teensy little honorarium of a scholarship.'

The point I was trying to make was that families who are well below the national average income do actually have the option to at least apply for a bursary in a private school - it is not only for the rich.

'but we live in a society and a good education should be EVERY childs right so they all have an equal opportunity and not an "advantage" because of their educational background.'

I think that what you say is true, in an ideal world. But the world is sadly not going to change is it?

So is this the deal ? Parents who can afford private, can go private. Parents who meet the criteria can apply for a bursary to go private. Parents who meet the criteria but there aren't any bursaries left will be unable to go private. Then there are the rest of the parents who either don't meet the criteria or don't apply.

That sounds like a really honourable and equal education system for all our little darlings. I don't know where my vitriol comes from !

I think you should be voicing your concerns to the government Rob. Our education system used to be the envy of the world sadly its not what it used to be.
We all try to give our children the best start in life. I am sure you will do the same for your next child.
If you calculate the hours children spend in lessons at school it equates to 15% of the year !!

Research shows IIRC that a child's parents are far more influential in how 'well' the child does in life than the school they go to and whether it is state or private.

In addition, there are certainly a lot of excellent state schools around but also some bad private ones.

I know, I get it, it's a competition, dog eat dog, everyone wants to give their own kids a step up. Naturally.

If all the talented, aspirational children with loving parents who care about their kids education, all went to state schools, I reckon the state schools would be a lot better.

If we're lucky enough to have another child, they will walk to the local state school around the corner, use their manners, not drop litter and hopefully be happy.....just like my other two daughters.

Hey Poppydoppy. I've a few friends who are teachers. I wind them up enough about the holidays they get. I've calculated in my state educated brain that if the kids are only in lessons for 15% of the year then teachers are only teaching for 15% of the year.......disgraceful !

No, my special needs son is not easily bored, he's autistic.

And he's not called Tarquin, nor are any of his friends.

I wish that those of you who use state schools as a babysitter until year 3 or 4 would consider the impact of your choices on the children remaining at the state school that's not good enough for you. Move 2 kids from state primary to private and that's about £9000 of funding gone. Now we have to make a TA redundant, now we can't afford curriculum materials etc etc. at least use private school from the start and give some other kid a chance to go to a school that's not up to scratch for you...

I have not used our local Primary to babysit. If the school was providing the challenge and academic stimulation my DC's needed, we would not be removing them at the end of Years 1 and 2 and anticipating a £100K spend on their education over the next 5 years, believe me. If schools are not cutting the mustard and the parents have the means, why should children have to be bored and under stimulated. DD is only 7 but she is rapidly losing interest in learning.

As someone with extensive experience of the independent sector for 40 odd years, I have NEVER come across a boy called Tarquin! Why such vitriol? It's the Katie Hopkins name-blasting/Tyler thing in reverse!

Parents are the first and main teachers and they have the biggest impact on (most) children and their potential success.

Schools are the next. It is natural that many parents are not prepared to sacrifice their children's education or enjoyment of school and search for their ideal establishment, independent or state. It is no one else's business where you choose to school your children.

night1971 - the voice of reason. I could not agree more.

Wow. £100k on a kid that's rapidly losing interest in learning....risky investment.

I know, I think I get it. If you've got the money, pay for your children's private education to give them a leg up. If you've a child that is so uber clever and bright, why would you want their vast potential to be dumbed down by mixing with the plebs in a state school.

Family will always come before society. Always.

dinner I removed my DS in yr 2 from our "local" twee roses round the door thatched roofed village primary school which he couldn't walk to because we were very rural to a mega expensive boarding prep because it was frankly mediocre at best and at its worst frankly crap.
I do believe that all children should have access to good education but they don't and if I'd stayed it wouldn't have made a jot of difference to the quality of the education offered. I'm old enough and been kicking around in education long enough to know that it doesn't matter what I say or do I can't fundamentally change the system so that education is organised in a way I want it to be.
Rob I hope you have children and I genuinely hope that you can send them to a local school that you can walk too that meets your individual expectations and that your DC(s) get all the opportunities for free that you and they want but some of us haven't achieved this in the state sector and rightly or wrongly because we have the money we are in a position to do something about it.

I'll send them to the local school, regardless of my expectations and I'll expect them to make the best fist of it they can. I live in a city so there are a few schools within walking distance. I'm quite strict and demand manners and respect from my kids so I hope they'll make a positive impact on the school.

Rob as I said I hope it works out well for you and your future DC(s).
I too hoped for this many years ago.

rob99

Less children = less competition. Sorry to be frank, but if you are really that concerned about jobs for your kids, you'd leave it at two and not more.

It is because there are more and more people in the world now, competing for what seems to be a stagnating number of jobs which makes some of us want our kids to have the best possible start in life. It is a fact that any generation in the developed world that will come after ours will have a worse standard of living once the emerging economies overtake us. One day, you may not be complaining about private schools anymore, but that your children were born in "the wrong region" of the world.

What will you do then?

I've a wife and two kids and we all work and I agree that the world is overcrowded and you do have a point. However, my children are very happy in their low paid work so in that respect they are no threat to Tarquin and Tabitha's aspirations and as a family we have always been self-sufficient. But I agree, we are being a bit selfish but it may never happen anyway.

Yes, I think you're right. There's only so many jobs to go around which creates a competitive society and a lot of parents want their own children to have an advantage for any opportunities out there and if that means paying for education, that's a good start in the competition.

I'm sure almost all middle class parents are aware that there is a correlation between the best jobs and Public school education.

I just want my daughter, Tabitha, to enjoy her school days and to achieve her potential, should she so desire. It is my job as her parent to ensure that these two criteria are met. How I choose to do this is my business.

rob99 What are your children called then? Why do you choose to belittle the choice of others? How very superior of you.

rob does this correlation not depend very much on where you live? I live in a very affluent rural area many state schools are on a par or even out perform non selective independent schools. The majority of parents are highly aspirational for their DC's wanting and assuming that they will leave their state school and go to the best universities and get those much coveted and as already said increasingly difficult to find "best jobs".
IME many parents in my neck of the woods choose independent ed because they are not just hoping that "Tarquin and Tabatha" will get a better job. Many are old money sending their DC's of to boarding school because that is what they've always done but others are looking for other things that the state can't/wont provide.

Rob, the world is a much smaller place nowadays there are a lot more options open to our children than there were for us.

I am sorry to say but you sound very bitter, instead of moaning get out there and do something about your situation. You could go back to Uni, train as something else, set up your own business, get two jobs. We live in a land of opportunity here in the UK some people just cant see it. If my 14 year old child can set up a business that turns over 200k a year......you can do it too.

"No threat to Tarquin and Tabatha' s aspirations"
Don't worry rob most of us have worked out that any "threat" is not coming from your DC's but from other parts of the world.

Sorry, Tarquin and Tabitha are just my own generic name for middle/upper class horsey, pretentious types......I didn't realise people were called Tarquin and Tabitha in real life. No offence intended.

Poppydoppy, I'm not at all bitter and I'm very happy with my job and the jobs that my kids have. My happiness doesn't depend on how great or well paid my job is. If all kids went to state school, I think kids will have equal opportunities, I think standards will improve and I think society/communities will benefit.

I understand people want to look after their own but sometimes the pushy parent, best school, special requirements etc etc is a bit selfish. It might be possible for children to enjoy school and achieve their potential at state schools.

I think a lot of parents want to keep their own children in a bubble, away from the "riff raff" but I think it would benefit all children if they mixed.....just my humble opinion.

If all kids went to state school, I think kids will have equal opportunities, I think standards will improve and I think society/communities will benefit.

No it wouldnt. More parents would tutor and there would be a huge divide. You cant have a one size fits all education system.

Are you also in favour of scrapping Unis like Oxford and Cambridge?