The Hall (hampstead) - big dillema

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Any parents out here with sons at The Hall who can help us with our dilemma?

DS just received an offer to start in Yr 1 (v. exciting news). We are however not quite sure whether to accept the offer. Ultimately we want our son to go on to Westminster/St. Pauls/boarding school which clearly The Hall has a very good placement record for. DS is v. bright and extremely competitive and so we do feel TH would be a good place for him. However an alternative option for us is for DS to take the 7+ tests for one of the above schools. He is currently at a pre-prep where he is very happy and there is always the slight concern about uprooting him.

The other bigger concern is the need to move closer to the school - we think that is necessary because its not only easier from a school run perspective, but I would imagine that most families with children at TH are living in hampstead/finchley rd area and not many are travelling in from afar - please correct me if I am wrong on this. We currently live nowhere near The Hall (applying for the school was a bit speculative on our part, we didn't really expect him to be accepted !) and in order to move closer to the school, we would essentially need to downsize. It is this concern which is making us more double-minded in accepting the offer. Certainly TH is a very good school, but is it worth the significant change in terms of moving home etc.

So I guess its a question of taking something certain like TH or potentially taking the 7+ gamble (i do notice that ds's concentration is v. poor - too early to say how well he'd do in such a test)? Moreover is moving for a school worth it - especially as it could mean in fact a smaller house as we simply cannot afford the prices in that area (schools fees are not an issue - no stretch there thankfully).

Would love to hear ppl's views. Thanks for reading !

must point out that I can spell "dilemma" !

So you'd be uprooting him from a presumably decent pre-prep, you would need to downsize in order to make the drive bearable AND you'd only want him to stay until the 7+?
Personally I'd leave him where he is, presuming it is a decent school, and prepare him for the 7+ if necessary.

I think it's worth keeping in mind that the school day is long especially with after school activities so you would definately need to move closer to school. Of course many parents come from farther away like islington and nottinghill but its a big committment to drive in the worse traffic time each and everyday. as thhe boys progress up the year, they dont get out until 5:30 or 6pm with clubs so can get very late. And if your goal is for Westminster or St. Paul's you would only be "supported" to move at the normal transfer point of 13 so 7+ from the Hall is not option. If you're at a pre-prep which prepares for 7+ and those are the ultimate target schools for you it seems sensible to have him stay where he is and is settled. If you opt for the Hall it would be 8 years before you get to the 2 schools you are after.

prepare him for the 7+. Since you have settled on know your ultimate destination, far better to have him in the school as early as possible, which will dramatically reduce the stress at 11 (for the pre-entry tests) and 13

Thanks mumfortwo and LePetitPrince. Yes indeed, if we accept the offer at TH, then we expect him to stay there till Yr 8. So its more of a choice of staying at the pre-prep and taking the 7+ or staying till 13 at TH. I find one option has more certainty than the other - as he cld mess up in the 7+ exams, whilst at TH he would be much older when he takes the entrance test for the schools (with nearly half the class going to such schools - based on their leavers' results) he may stand a better chance. I guess I worry that if we give up on this offer and ds doesn?t get into one of the reputable schools at 7+, we may have some regrets.

Thanks on giving us a bit of idea on where do most families are coming from. What would be the areas really local to the school? Would Golders Green be considered close enough? Apart from the drive etc living too far away from the school may also affect play dates, I think.

But overall you are correct it?s a choice between a great school but the downsides are that we uproot our son and downsizing?..

I would keep him settled where he is, and prepare for the 7 and 8+. There are no guarantees and a big upheaval 'in case' probably isn't worth it.

These schools are bloody hard to get into and getting harder every year. Have a plan B and don't set your heart on a particular school. Its too stressful all round.

My Ds2 was offered a place at TH, and after much deliberation, we turned it down to keep him where he currently is.

I did not see the benefits of uprooting him from where he has good friends, is doing really well at school and it's somewhere he feels comfortable ( there are also other reasons we considered).

My DH made a point that in general, kids who are bright will do well wherever they are, so if your DC is in a good school that preps for the 7+, I don't think I would worry too much about moving him. The move plus new school could be quite an upset.

Also, another point to consider is that all the boys at TH will be bright. It could be quite a confidence knocker to be top of your class in the current school, only to find that this may not be so in the new class.

PM me if you'd like.

Good luck in your decision. I know it's not easy, but you will ultimately make the right choice for your DC and the family.

Yes it?s a difficult choice ? why disrupt the status quo when that is going well too. I will PM you skygirl.

Could anyone shed light on the school timings? I recall hearing that there is a shorter school day at TH, perhaps on Wednesdays. Is that till noon? Does school start at 8:45 on all days and do they have a breakfast club prior to that?

If your first choice is one of the day schools, I would leave him where he is and do 7+, at least if the schools you are aiming for at that stage have good track records of admitting a very high percentage of their prep boys to the senior school and you can then avoid the stress at 11 (I have girls and the very selective London girls schools that I am familiar with do tend to admit most of their prep girls to the senior schools. The only boys schools I am really familiar with due to family is KCL and again it has a very good track record in this regard. No idea about the process from the Westminster/St Pauls preps into the senior school). You do though need to make sure you have a decent back up at 7 or 8 if he does not get through the tests. The Hall often has the odd place at 7+. Are Westminster/St Pauls etc manageable from where you currently live, or would you need to move for them too?
If your first choice is a boarding school, I might think differently.

I think if you can get them into the other schools like Colet court or Westminster Under School at 7+ or whatever that is better than at 13+ as you are getting more chances of getting in.

You could also commute in. My daughter got a coach to Haberdashers on her own from age 5 (to age 18) and she was fine even with a longish commute.

I have looked into the commuting option but I'd much prefer DS being closer to school and not having to leave extremely early in the morning to make it in time for school etc. I'd also like him to be closer to school to enable playdates etc. It would be nice to be local to the area - but I wanted to check if this is necessarily the case with TH or are there many families coming in from afar.

I am keen on the London day schools (though DH would differ on that!) - clearly TH offers the optionality for both (i.e. if we decide to go for boarding). Agree we would need to have back-ups if the 7+ does not work out which is my main worry that if doesn't work out for the desired schools, we will regret having not accepted TH offer because if you look at the leavers' results it seems to get at least half the children into either St. Pauls / Westminster. DS's current pre-prep does not have such an exceptional record at 7+ but we would be open to tutoring at that stage too. How many places open up at TH at 7+ - I also read somewhere on mumsnet there is an exodus of children around yr3/yr4 who don't quite meet the standards at the school? Is that correct?

True regarding the move - Westminster would definitely be more manageable for us; Colet Court not quite and would require a move but at that point commuting could also be an option (ds would be older).

It does seem overwhelming opinion is to stay put !

I agree with the other posters - try for 7+. By the time you reach 13+ (common entrance) you have nowhere to go if your son doesn't get into the school of your choice. Given the shortage in places for boys the pressure on the year 8s is horrendous. Far better to aim for 7+ without having to go through the horrors of CE. The boys at the Hall and similar are not having a relaxing half term right now I assure you (nor are their parents!).

The timetable at the Hall for year 1 is form 8:30 to 3:15 Mon to Friday. Only reception has 1 half day which is on Wed. And the school day extends to 8am to 4pm by the time you reach Year 4 and even then with 2 games days, the boys often don't return until later still. If your son chooses one of the after school activities, then it will end at 4:15 for Year 1 or 5:30 to 6pm form Year 4 onwards. It is a very long day if you add a 30 min or longer commute on top so I would imagine most people would want to move closer. There are some families who commute to the Hall from farther afield BUT they have a full staff (nannies, grannies etc) to assist. And yes playdates will be tricky depending on how far you are from the general area. I know some parents stress about going across to Islington as it takes such a long time to get across Camden.

Spaces do become available but I would not describe it as an exodus. It normally happens after Year 5 as some boys leave to go to City or other families decide London day school scene is not for them, but its 1 or 2 at most. And of course you do have families who move out of London for other job related reasons but again there are very few of those compared to the other indies nearby.

If your son is happy and he appears to be capable, the entry to the school at 7+ is probably easier than at Year 6 pre-tests. Pre-preps who prepare at 7+ is also working at a different pace to the Hall who don't ratchet up the work until the middle school, their aim being Year 6 pre-tests.

I don't have a son at The Hall, but I do have one at one of the Preps you would be targeting at 7+. I disagree with people saying that it is easier to get your son in and "park" him at the 7+ vs pre-test/CE. 20 are accepted at 7+ to WUS and 36 at CC. The same number are accepted at 8+. A further 20 odd are accepted at 11+ to WUS and about the same number at CC, but these spots are principally geared to state school applicants. However, at the Great School they take in an additional 70-80 students and at St. Paul's they take in about 70 more. My point is that you should not worry about difficulty entering at CE - if your son is bright enough now, he will be bright enough later on. If he were someone you were worried about not making the cut at CE, then he probably would not make it through WUS/CC either.

One poster pointed out that you DS may not like transferring to The Hall because he will not necessarily be at the top of the class compared to where he is at his current pre-prep - this would even be more exacerbated at WUS/CC.

If I were in your shoes, I would keep him at his current school and try for the 7+ and the 8+ as back up. There are excellent prep schools out there to fall back on if your DS is not successful at this stage which will prepare him well for a wide variety of schools, including St Paul's and Westminster. Boys change very much in these years, at those boys who seemed to be the brightest stars in Reception and Year 1 are not necessarily those which shine brightest in Year 6. In your case, I would not worry currently if your son does not seem to have a long concentration span - he is only in Reception. This will come with maturity and might even be resolved by the 7+ time.

I still think having as many goes as possible to get in somewhere does no harm and at 11+ for some of the schools ours went to - Haberdashers, NLCS (a bit further out) all the state school parents pile in at 11+ whereas not so much at 5 or 7+ and once you're in you are mostly there to 18 unless you are really really having a hard time but they choose very well at younger ages so in the better schools that rarely happens.

mumfor in Y1 is 8.30 the start of the first lesson or the start of the drop-off "window" IYSWIM? Similarly, in later years (8am to 4pm) is that the fully timetabled lessons, or is the early start (8am) to allow for extracurricular (music ensembles, drama etc.) before classes start later (say 8.30 or 8.45)? Thanks.

Apologies for the hijack, OP.

For what its worth, I think I would stay where you are if it has your confidence. If not, you should move to another pre-prep (whether it is TH or otherwise).

Mumfortwo thank you for the detailed info. That's great that the Wednesday afternoon off is only for the reception children. DS would start at Yr 1 if we accept - still far too young to be travelling 30 mins one way. I was speaking to one mum with a ds at ucs and she thought it was fairly common for 30 mins travelling time simply due to traffic. Yes exactly I don't want DS not be able to have many playdates simply because he lives a long way away.

Mominamatrix thx for putting it into perspective. 24 places at WUS is very few. I agree that there are probably less applicants (relatively speaking) at the 7+/8+ level, but by no means can we say it is easier to get a place at 7+ versus at 11/13. What also helps at 11/13 is that the child will be older, more likely to be able to undertake independent study and understand what it means to be taking these exams, whilst I'm not quite so sure that a 6/7 yr old would be as fully engaged with the process (wouldnt they rather be playing outside than be doing practice tests?). You mentioned that if the 7+ does not work out we could fallback on some of the other top prep schools that have an intake at 7+ which also do well in placing at the top senior schools - which would these be?

For Y1, doors open at 8:30 and boys expected to be in class and registered by 8:40 and school ends at 3:15. After school clubs starts from 3:15 to 4:15. From Y4 onwards doors open at 8am so the boys can get organised with their books and check different sceduling lists etc to get to lessons by 8:20 and day ends at 3:55. The schedules and info about music lessons and games fixtures change so the boys do really need to be in at the latest by 8:10 for Y4 and up. Extracurricular start at 4pm and doesn't end until 5 at the earliest or 8pm if you do cubs. I feel it is a very long day. Plenty of parents do live far away but you need to remember that when they get home they also will have an increasing amount of prep to get done. So it depends on what arrangement you and your son will be happy with. In the early years it will be about getting play dates etc but by the time they are in middle school it's about getting home to get going on the prep. I would go with your gut feel. You will know what is best for your son.

In terms of multiple tries to get in to a school not harming chances, there was a thread in the recent past about WUS where a poster who had been on the inside track for admissions there said that is did harm a boy's chance if they had been unsuccessful at 7+ and was a borderline candidate at 8+. Schools do keep this information on file, so a judicious evaluation of realistic chances of getting in is probably a good idea - something a school geared for entry at 7+/8+ would be able to give. Whatever you do, please listen to the Head's advice. I know a boy who is a classmate of my son's who was advised not to apply due to maturity issues, not intellect. Despite being advised to wait until 11 or 13, the parents tutored heavily and their son did get in, only to be very much struggling both academically and socially.

Yes, perhaps but I suppose my point was more you may have more change at 5 ot 7+ for some schools as state school parents not competing for places at 11+ whereas at 11+ more competition exists so our scheme that they got in young for some of the children did work I think. We never had one who failed at one age and then was trying at an older age.

Going against the flow here, but when faced with exactly the same choice I chose the Hall without hesitation, much as I love my son's pre-prep. My reasoning was as follows:

1. My target school's are also Westminster and St. Paul's, but the fall back choices at 7+ did not enthuse me (e.g UCS, Highgate, with the possible exception of Habs, which is though a bit of a trek from us).
2. Conversely at 13+ there are more fallback choices to my liking (e.g boarding, City, Habs-on the assumption that he will be able to cope with the commute at 13-).
3. 7+ is no picnic. I went through it with my DD and even though the outcome was positive (she got into all the schools she applied) the process was stressful for both parents and children. Granted the competion for girls at 7+ is stiffer as there are fewer places (e.g 8-10 at NLCS, 5 at Habs, more at SHHS and City - 20/24), but trust me there was a lot of nail biting among the boys' mums too. You say that your current pre-prep does not have (such) an excpetional record at 7+. Not sure if you are comparing it with the Hall for admission at WUS and CC or generally. If it doesn't have a very good record generally then think twice about keeping him there. Most pre-preps though will not have hoardes of children going to WUS and CC as the places are limited.
4. The boys we know that got in at WUS and CC at 7+ were in my view exceptionally mature. My son is summer born and although academically very able I had my reservations as to whether he would be mature enough for WUS and CC at 6.5. I did not wish to take the risk, especially when he had a place at the Hall, one of the most reputable preps in London with a proven track record for getting the boys into Westminster and St Paul's at CE. (About half of each year intake).
5. The boys at WUS and CC still have to go through the CE at 13+. I believe that at WUS they compete for their place, but not so at CC. I may be wrong on this, but either way they still need to go through CE. Borderline children are guided elsewhere I am told.

A few words about living close to the school. It's convenient if you do, but it is not the most crucial factor. My daughter gets the coach to NLCS which is 30 mins ride away. My son walks to school and it also gets him 30 mins to get there (the Hamsptead/Belsize park rush our traffic is so bad that even if you are local it does take you long to get there if you do not set off early). Yes they will be a little tired for the first term but they quickly adapt. Many children from further afield come to Hampstead/Belsize park schools e.g from Islington, Highgate, Hendon, East Finchley, Crouch End etc. It is no problem for playdates (although you will not have many of those midweek term time as homework/prep demands increase). There is even a minibus service which brings kids to the schools to the NW3/NW8 area (transport4schools).

Good luck with your choice.

I agree with Hampsteadmum

A bird in the hand and all that. A place at The Hall which is a feeder to your preferred schools is better than a maybe place at 7+.

Plus at 13+, you really will know your son in a way you don't now. And The Hall will advise you of which schools would suit him best.

hampstead mum does speak sense. Competition is actually greater at 7+ and 8+ than 11+ for CC and WUS as the hoards of pushy London parents are all aiming for the same thing - I think that WUS had 200 boys applying for the 20 spots this year. Do NOT apply at 7+ thinking that there will be less competition!

The maturity issue is important. The boys I referred to in my previous post is not less bright than his classmates - just much less mature. These two schools are the opposite of spoon-feeding, hand holding institutions and expect a level of self-initiation in the boys. Also, a boy entering at 7+ or 8+ needs to be quite self-assure and think skinned to be able to cope with the blistering pace and to be in an environment where boys seem to do many things concurrently at a high level.

CC does not do CE. It has an internal transfer exam which the boys are well prepped for - it is more of an exam which the boys need to fail, rather than pass. In terms of quiet words, they will have been had years prior to the transfer exam and usually due to mistakes made on 7+/8+ admissions where the child just did not continue developing along the same path as the vast majority of the class. These do happen, but they are a fairly small number.

boy, not "boys I referred to..."

thick skinned, not think skinned (can you tell I'm an atrocious typist?)