Selective independants

[poppydoppy]

Do they look better on League tables because the standard of teaching is better or just because they select the children most likely to do well?

Having read up the thread a bit Yellowtip a lot does indeed depend upon where one lives. We do not pay £30k; we pay about £19k for a top London selective. There are no other viable options in South West London for clever boys whose strengths are humanity/creative/ linguistic based rather than mathematical or scientific.

Had DS been naturally mathematically or scientifically motivated we would have sent him to Tiffin. He would have got in but if I say he got 99%, 98%, 97%, 96% respectively for Eng Lang, Latin, Mandarin/Eng Lit, History and still got A*s closer to the border for Maths/sciences I think that puts it in perspective. That really isn't meant as a boast but as a justification for why one makes the decisions one does taking all the prevailing circumstances into account.

yellowtip
but which 5% / .... that is why the setting / clustering would allow the top 5% in every different way to be catered for

that is of course the crass failure in seekers favourite Kent 11+ : kids have to be all things to all people to get through it rather than being allowed to be individuals

"seeker But why should he have to sacrifice his free time to be taught at an appropriate level? And lose the opportunity to do the sort of extra curricular stuff that actually matters far more in educational and roundedness terms than a sheaf of GCSE certificates? It's bonkers. And deeply unfair."

Turn it round. Why should the entire education system be geared to suit the needs of a tiny minority? Particularly when it's a tiny minority whose needs can be adequately met by alternative means?

Xenia You must be tired. I was making the point that true confidence and assertiveness comes with the maturity to know and understand your strengths and weaknesses and to be secure enough to listen, have empathy and to care. When those qualities are missing as they certainly were amongst some of the madams at DDs school who seek security through tribal behaviour and exclusivity, it doesn't really make a difference that they are part of a sloane rather than chav tribe, then it is arrogance and a sense of entitlement.

Geography is all married, which is catastrophically unfair if you can't up or downshift. We were where we were and incredibly lucky, I'm very conscious of that. I don't have any grounds for believing that my DC would have fared well in London assuming we hadn't been able to pay (I couldn't have competed with the mad levels of Tiffin/ HB/ QEB tutoring) and yet plonked in an arid zone of unremarkable comps I think they'd have done very averagely too. The variable quality of education is just such a mess, and I do count my blessings. I don't subscribe to the view that bright kids will do well whatever the school; I believe the quality of school is key.

I don't subscribe to the view that bright kids will do well whatever the school
evidence?
large numbers of kids come out of dire schools with amazing results

Seeker To punish people for being good at stuff is the surest way to ensure that nobody except the people who can buy out of such an iniquitous system never even try. Kids have an absolute right to be taught to their ability in the time set aside for education. It's ridiculous and a bit twisted to suggest that they should be punished and robbed of their free tie just so that the kids who aren't quite as good at whatever the particular subject is don't have to admit that sometimes someone is better at sme stuff than they are.

I happen to believe that the quality of educational provision is hugely important Tp and should be evenly distributed around the country.

Talkin They do. But large numbers who should, don't. Despite what Seeker maintains one size does not fit all and individual kids have individual needs. And as we all know, sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of many. And now excuse me while I go off to have a quiet little cry

And I was probably top 20% and went to a very very good Kent grammar school where I was spectacularly unacademic at the time - if i hadn't got in my parents would have kept me at my frightfully nice independent school which I attended from age 7 and which probably won my place at the grammar. They girls who didn't get in, stayed.

Shit shit shit. This bloody iPad. The needs of the one outweigh the needs of THE many. That is the one quote I would never ever get wrong except for my rubbish typing.

Interesting one on the 'specialist units vs stand alone schools' question. Locally, the special schools are in the grounds of a good comprehensive - spearate institutions on 1 site. I think that is a possible model BUT geography might dictate a different arrangement e.g. on the camps of a local university might be another option. Co-location does porovide for e.g. very spiky profiles, mainstream provision in subjects where ability is less extreme (e.g. both the people I know would have benefitted from mainstream school in 1 or more subjects), PE etc etc

Ok but before you cry, what had DS done to warrant the laundry basket crime, or is DD simply mecurial like that?

mercurial. Triple shit.

Yellow I've lost track of their many concurrent running disputes. I think it was a revenge mission. Who knows. :(

Maybe I've spent to long battling to get help for my DS1 and have become bitter and twisted about the ability of state ed to meet the needs of those who are not the norm. But I can't see the state sector ever meeting the needs of the top 1% let alone the 1 in a 10 000 they just don't have the mind set or resources to cope with significant difference.
Before I get accused of bashing state ed again IME the main stream independent sector was also unable to meet the needs of DS1 there has been one difference between them; at the independent schools he's attended they promised to implement the recommendations in the ed psych report but didn't (which is why yellows accusations of my gullibility is so laughable I've been lied to by teachers so many times that I can detect a lie before they even open their mouths to speak and have become thoroughly cynical), in the state sector they commissioned another report, carefully read the recommendations which were even more specific than previous ones and then filed the report under B for bin and told me that they had no intention of implementing the recommendations least you know where you stand so I've decided that a preferable. I just want to add that none of recommendations required anything more complex than the ability to press the print button when doing slides for a smart board and occasionally checking his comprehension when detailing complex instructions. DS1's problems are I accept usual apparently only 1 in 500 have his profile and the system like the NHS and other areas in the public sector large and unwieldy so ultimately there is not room for significant and long term variation on a theme. So my experience has taught me that for those who academic ability puts them in 10 000 or any other needs for that matter they haven't got a cats hope in hell of having them met.

Unusual not usual. This new gadget thing can't get to grips with my awful spelling!

happy the top schools have exactly the mind set to deal with the top per cent, and do so very effectively. You are very definitely extrapolating here, and concluding wrongly. You may well not wish to believe your DS could be catered for in the state sector but I expect he most probably could.

Maybe I am extrapolating but my experience i very sadly far from unique many with children with SEN or other issues; moderate learning difficulties and even or significant health needs including things like type 1 diabetes school refusers and most worrying for me CP feel that children's individual needs are not being met. This isn't just at my DS1's school the more people I've talked to about my DS's problem on specialists forums/helplines and listen to those I work with the more I tragically hear the same story. I just cannot see that there is the infra structure man power or willingness to support the 1 10 000 super bright child they like those mentioned above would find the responsibility would be constantly being out back onto the parents.
"You may well not wish to believe your DS could be catered for in the state sector but I expect he most probably could."
Perhaps you didn't read one of my comments yesterday but when I looked at our local comp a couple of years ago for DS2 (where his brother goes) a couple of teachers and the head of SEN advised me in confidence to remain in the independent sector if I could afford it and if not to try and get a scholarship somewhere! We had been given this advise twice at primary level 6-7 years previously but I was hoping it would be better at senior level.

Sorry seeker but I just don't think DS would be appropriately educated if were in a top set at a comp (at least in some subjects).

There would be no point for him to be doing the GCSE sylabus in certain subjects. So why should he go over and over it? That's hardly a recipe for promoting passion in a subject, is it?

And why should he do extension work in his spare time? In his spare time he has PC games to play and crisps to eat!!! And he's a chorister which at his school is A Big Thing. And he plays a sport out of school which takes up a fair wad of time in training.

And anyway, who would do this extension work with him? Teachers are already up in arms about Gove's proposals to extend the school day, why would they want to spend Saturdays teaching my DS?

And here's the thing. My son is catagorically not a genius. He is not gifted. I have a friend with a child like that and DS is not remotely similar. But because he has been around peers with a similar ability and interest, his ability and interest has grown and grown. The collegiate atmosphere has done what yellow described and normalised DS academic abilities.

Now I'm perfectly happy to pay for my DS to have this. And lucky me I have money and a flat in town where we can live during the week so DS can attend his school of choice. But for those kids who don't have that, surely super selective grammars are the way to go?

There is also no point in doing extension work at home and then coming back into the classroom and doing the same as the rest of the class even if it is the top set IME this just results it boredom and pissing about.

And yes you are right word your DS needs to have time out of school to enjoy other things.

On tribal issue I don't think the confidence some children have and perhaps have more of at private schools is always a bad thing. Also any group of teenagers on the planet if they are normal will have sometimes awful divisions about who is "in" and who isn't, in comprehensives and private schools. It is the nature of humans to be so and not always one of our best characteristics. I don't think the private schools are any worse than any other school for that and in the very bright (and hugely mixed racially and culturally) independent schools around here (which by the way c an be tiop 10 in the country and £15k, not even the ££19k or £30k mentioned above) there can be less of that than in the state system.

Confidence is important. Both schools sectors should aim to ensure as many children as possible leave school with it.

I entirely agree with Xenia. Having myself grown up with academic ability in spades but zero confidence and seen where that got me, I wanted almost the exact opposite for my children. Luckily they're bright as well. I don't have the confidence to go out and earn £££ like Xenia does but I earn £ and spend it all on school fees because I feel that strongly that my children shouldn't told they are lazy/ autistic/ naughty/ from the word go at school. And it seems to have worked, thankfully. My children all have a lot of confidence to try new things and aren't knocked back by reversals or failure.

I always thought I was good (and I suppose objectively I am). Interesting issue is whether as I was at a not very academic school (small/private) and I think I got the best A levels in my school, scholarship to university, university prizes etc I had that feeling because of the fact compared to quite a few of the other girls I was pretty good or whether it as just objective knowledge.

Had I been at a school like those my children were at (which have their fair share of the genius type of child never mind my ordinary fairly bright ones, then may be it would have been otherwise although I suspect not.

Having been through graduation and first jobs with my older ones I do think skills such as ability to talk to people, knowing what to wear, accent, conversation topics can make a big difference to obtaining jobs and keeping them particularly in difficult economic times such as now and indeed when I made 115 job applications at university a good few years ago before Thatcher's wonderful efforts began to pay fruit.

I was objectively good and always thought I was crap. I know which ethos of the two of us I'd rather have had.