Selective independants

[poppydoppy]

Do they look better on League tables because the standard of teaching is better or just because they select the children most likely to do well?

I would call it taking to a logical conclusion, rather than misreading. People are often uncomfortable thinking about what happens at (c) and (d) when they talk about (a) to (b).

Now, when it comes to chauvinism, as in a biased devotion to your particular belief, I would say there was a lot of that going on on each side of the argument. How interesting that Yellowtip should only feel fit to comment on it one way. Anyone would think Yellowtip herself is somewhat biased.

Mind you, I agree with wordfactory that it is most odd to expect anyone who listens to their dh's opinion to agree that they are listening to a chauvinist and should instead reject all that in favour of the opinion of a complete stranger who claims to work in a particular field but whom they've never met and no-one can vouch for.

Most of our children will end up working in the UK. They will probably work with many different cultures form the UK and abroad and probably have business trips abroad. However most will not choose to move from their home country for work for all kinds of reasons.

Some children who are moved too much or live between several cultures are not necessarily advantaged by that nor are those sent away from those whom they love. Of course disadvantage of some kind and a difficult family for some, however, can be a key reason for future success - a double edged sword I suppose.

best to starve them occasionally. keeps them on their toes.

I'd call it not reading the words and substituting others which weren't there at the outset and were never intended.

I'd also say that there's a significant difference between logical conclusion which is fine and reducing an argument to the absurd, which is what you so often seem to do, with no subtlety.

That was directed at seeker.

I think that many of us who were motivated by disadvantage to succeed do worry that our DC won't have a similar drive. That the very priviledge we've provided will blunt their ambition...

Cloggs to cloggs in three generations, as the saying goes in my old stomping ground.

Yellow tip- just because you didn't like me suggesting that it's not equitable for Oxbridge to be "an initial flag" or that a 2:1 from Oxbridge gets you automatically to the next round (I think it was you said that- forgive me if it wasn't) doesn't mean I am misreading or misinterpreting.....

I think its rather narrow minded to assume that most of our children will be working in the UK given the state of our economy.
We have offices in a few different countries and are looking to open more in emerging markets because that is where the money will be in the future.

I suggest you read the thread and the words written seeker and then challenge them accurately because it's a waste of people's time when you ascribe meanings and words which weren't there.

It's obviously complete nonsense to disregard university when looking for graduate trainees in fact it's so completely obvious it shouldn't have to be said.

Of course the university matters. There are large numbers of very good candidates coming out the best universities and large numbers with rather poor results coming out of the less good universities. Good employers restrict recruitment for new graduates from the better universities for obvious reasons. Everyone knows that and it is very fair. If schools are telling children by all means go to XYZ ex poly as all universities are equal then they are guilty of misrepresentation. On the other hand if the child could not get into anywhere else it may well be able to work its way up having started someone badly regarded and that may be better than not going to university at all.

Statistically most UK graduates want to and end up working in the UK. Now of course our ancestors have moved across this planet searching for food for 3 million years and then jobs more recently so yes they may well move abroad, but I believe most of the children of those on this thread will not end up working in another country. Plenty will not want to or only for short periods. However yes of course it's good to ensure children will be adaptable. In fact it is terribly important to give daughters the skills to negotiate with a husband to force him to follow her not his career as far too many women sacrifice their career to a man's and regret it later.

Those were your words yellowtip. I could cut and paste if you like.

Assuming that the only candidates worth considering come for 2- or even 5- Universities is a) possibly denying yourself some brilliant candidates, b) doing nothing to challenge the status quo and c) laying yourself open to a discrimination case.

"Good employers restrict recruitment for new graduates from the better universities for obvious reasons."
It interesting that you should say this and I always thought the same but two friends DD's have just left two ex poly universities both did a years work experience as part of their degree at two internationally renown MNC's, one the sort of company that many would kill to get into and both have gone from university straight into work with them on a graduate training program all expenses paid and not bad salary for a 22 year old.
I dont if this is the norm maybe its not but I was rather surprised I have say.

Copthall You continue to misread and misinterpret, doubtless on purpose. Following your pattern of attacking me in every thread we both find ourselves in. I wasn't talking about your husband's job title. I don't CARE about your husband OR his views hence my annoyance when you and Word both quoted your husbands as some kind of better authority on MY experience than I am. I was talking about my OWN job title (in generalistic terms). I have said several times that based on my experience the 'advantages' offered by independent schools in terms of overseas travel opportunities are not in fact advantages in the graduate recruitment market IN MY AREA. Because they aren't. I know this, because I am involved with recruiting and development and I know what we look for and I also have certain profession-wide roles so my experience isn't even limited to my own firm. Yet you keep telling me I'm wrong. With no basis in either relevant experience or fact. And then you quoted your husband at me. Why would I care what your husband thinks? I don't.

Rabbit If you weren't meaning to have a jibe at me then I apologise for assuming you were. It must have just been a lucky coincidence that you described my council flat to oxbridge youth almost to a T - however since you were pretty disparaging about that general route also, I don't apologise for thinking your comments were nasty.

In what way was I disparaging about the general route??

hg, yes work experience really matters. It was interesting that my second daughter once she had more work experience was much more interesting to employers and I suppose it is obvious that that would be so (and she has just about all As and a good university etc etc like just about everyone you compete with).

I doubt anyone would recommend taking the chance of a poor university though over one that is good. You can get work experience at both types so why take the risk of a lesser institution and if the other students are not to bright then the whole place becomes more down market and standards of discussion between students is duller etc etc.

Russians - I have several friends who went from council estates to good universities. My own father followed a similar route into medicine. However, I don't know anyone who managed that from the huge council estate in London I was once asked if I was interested to help set up a reading scheme at where several women had been raped in broad daylight in recent weeks, nobody felt safe walking across the estate on their own, the police didn't feel safe going to, and peoples' flats had been taken over by groups wanting to set up crack dens. I have to say, anyone living there who managed nevertheless to overcome the dangers surrounding them and go to Oxford or Cambridge would be something pretty special. So maybe we were just thinking of different council estates?!

"I doubt anyone would recommend taking the chance of a poor university though over one that is good"

But xenia these two were at "poor universities" not great A levels but have jobs that other friends DC's Oxbridge etc would love and in this current market dont even get interviewed for.
I'm not saying its usual but its certainly interesting.

Just to recap. It doesn't really matter what school you attend but it does matter what University you go to and the grades you acquire.

Ah, that's it then seeker: Mother's Ruin. That explains the problem :)

Of course it happens just as I know multi millionaires who left school at 15 and did really well in business. However as parents we are trying to maximise life chances so we read to children and feed them well because that tends to help them. We seek the best schools we can find and the same for universities. We talk to them and love them. Just because some children make it through from difficult circumstances including ex polytechnics does not mean that is the route we steer the children down.

If lots of well educated women are sending their children to the worst universities they can find with very low A level result entrance requirements that will make it easier for children going to the better places so I suppose in a sense on a personal level one may encourage others to go for it.

I am one of those ex poly types from a furrin country who bought the nonsense that all UK universities are equal. I work for a MNC now but it was not easy getting here and I had to jump through so many more hoops than my peers to end up where I am; including postgraduate studies and working abroad. It took several years of experience and proving myself over and over again before my university stopped being a disadvantage to my career. Even now I try not to mention it and you will not believe how many men in the City are so determined to let you know which particular Oxbridge college they attended, decades after graduation.

The utopian ideal would be of course to say employers should take time to understand the individual merits of each applicant but if you are going for jobs with the big name firms in banking, consultancy, fund management, law, accounting etc, employers will more often than not default to the same well known universities.