The right age to start school - I've changed my mind

[emkana]

Coming from Germany, where children start school at the age of six/seven I used to think that four was terribly early for starting school, that it was depriving children of their childhood.

Now dd, who is nearly five, is coming to the end of her reception year, I've changed my mind. I think it's wonderful what she's learned in her time at school. Big words, big concepts, a lot about social interaction, her reading has come on in leaps and bounds, and she has enjoyed every moment of it.

But then again other children might not be as lucky as her...
nevertheless, I feel now that children mostly benefit from school at this age, as long as it is done well. In Germany, on the other hand, Kindergarten is often all about unstructured free play all day every day, then when school starts it's straight into very structured, disciplined learning - a big culture shock! Here, at dd's school, it seems to be done so gradually that they move from lots and lots of play to more and more structured learning, that they hardly notice it at all. And the learning they do still seems to be mainly fun for them.

gosh I only went for a wee and a cup of tea emakna and foundintranslation! thanks so much . will try and CAT you fit. it sound an interesting project right up my street being as it to do with food! xx

NZ is on your 5th birthday - a kind of "split the difference" and you never end up with a kid in the class who is just 4. You don't have to send them until they are 6 though - and because they are zoned, as long as you want your local school they can't really presure you.

In Germany they're starting now to lower the school starting age to five.

Probably a good age, I do worry sometimes about those children here who are only just four.

interesting. dd started school full time last September aged just 4 and about 2 weeks. She coped better than I expected, although she seemed ready academically but perhaps not socially, and by half term had settled in well. In the Swiss school system she would have started school aged 7, a full 3 years later , and no way could I have kept her occupied in the meantime. She wouldn't even have been eligible for Kindergarten for another year, when turning 5, although she would have had a chance to learn the local language .

I've heard a lot of 'experts' saying that our young age for starting school in this country is more of a problem for boys than girls. The problem with introducing formal learning is that children learn how to fail and are therefore put off reading + school in general at an earlier age whereas if they were to start formal schooling at 5 or 6 they would have already grasped language skills and hopefully have developed a positive approach to school. I suppose if you have a happy, well-adjusted child with supportive parents with a positive attitude to school and learning then an early start to schooling is likely to be benefiical or at least not harmful whereas children from deprived backgrounds may be disadvantaged by an early start to formal schooling.

we moved to the states two years ago - our son was in the middle of year one and went to 1/2 day kindergarten! not sure it did him any good at that stage. with our older daughter we really noticed that in a few years the american children had caught up.

Ooh I like this one! My neighbour decided to wait till her daughter turned 7 1/2 so she would get more out of her childhood, which I found really weird because, to me, starting school at 6 already seems so late!

Well, my dd starts school here in Germany this August, she turns 6 a month later. When I took her to the school interview, the principal said she felt dd would have been ready to start a year earlier. I think so too. I do feel 4 is a bit young but most kids are ready to learn to read and write and can sit and concentrate for a stretch of time at 5.

Having said all that, and I do sometimes worry about her lagging behind the UK curriculum and so on, I can't say this extra year or so of "just play" at kindergarten was harmful in any way. I do like the mixed age kindergarten groups. She is one of the oldest now and has the big sister role with the 3-5 year olds which I find good social skills training. In our case, the extra year of learning German before school starts can't really harm either.

Hi Emkana, just interested and maybe you or someone can enlighten me - if school finishes at 11.30am or midday, where do the kids go? Don't parents work in germany??????

just wondering!

The German school system basically assumes that the mother is at home.
Many kindergartens shut at lunch and on Friday afternoons, too.

foundintranslation is right, there is more of a cultural expectation in Germany that the mother will be at home.

There are, however, also after-school childcare options - it's called "Hort" and it's a bit like an after-school club.

But there too few places to cover the demand.

wow, thanks guys. So is there a better maternity / state provision or do men earn more or what? Or is living cheaper enabling women to be at home?

I'm fascinated, it is so different to this country where the pressure and expectation is that both parents will be at work.

When I stayed with a penfriend in Bavaria (she was 14/15) she finished school at 1. Usually she had either sports clubs or she went to a special 'after school club' run by university students. They basically helped with homework and kept an eye on the teenagers. Seemed like a great idea.

The killer was choir practice at 6 in the morning!

I don't see why you would regret posting it HF - it is a very interesting first hand description of your experience.

Mind you, I'm not German!

My DS does seem too little to be starting school in September (he'll be 4 and a month) but your DS sounds too old for the system there. Maybe 5, and 5 being 5, is more of an ideal age?

I thought it was very interesting, Hausfrau.

In spite of being German myself I don't have that much insight into the reality of the German Kindergarten - all my friends at home are rather slow at procreating, so are way behind me.

And I don't know how far my own experiences as a child still reflect reality today.

We had a German student at our PlayCentre. The PC philoshophy (as indeed the whole early years curriculum) is child led play. However you are allowed to "extend" the play - and that's where a skillful teacher can take the "running around like a loon" and turn it into something that's on the plan, gradually as the child co-operates. The German student was really good at this - what a shame it sounds like she's going back to a system that expects less of her.

HF You have rather well summarised why our ds would not have thrived, and most likely been very unhappy, in a Swiss Kindergarten environment, let alone my own fears of him becoming the target of bullying and marginalisation (by teacher as well as children) and lack of structure and learning and my being unable to support him language wise. All credit to you and ds1 for trying to make it work though.

I taught at a school in Austria, although not Germany it is a similar system and was first of all amazed by the class sizes which seemed very small. It was a hauptschule which is the equivalent of the secondary modern over here and the children were from very disadvantaged families in Vienna and so there were a lot of problems. I also used to go to my penfriend's school with her in Frankfurt. They did finish at lunchtime but had craft and sport activities in the afternoon and started early at 8. Most of the classes were run by the teachers in the afternoon. I also saw very few of the parents so cannot comment on whether they worked or not but most kids were there all day. What I was most impressed with was the relationship that the teachers had with the kids that seemed to be very protective and caring and there was less formality between the teachers and the kids although English schools seem to be moving this way also. I did find the behaviour though quite different from my own experience of schools with kids leaving the class room without asking in both the Hauptschule and the gymnasium in Frankfurt. However, I have also noticed that the German adults I have met like to learn alot and aspire to be educated more so than many English counterparts and this may be (only a theory) due to the later start. Whether we flog kids to death by the age of 18 with exams and pressures is something that does concern me but hopefully somebody will be able to give me a more positive view of the UK educational system.

At secondary level also the Gm system seems to be much more casual, eg. it's accepted for kids to eat during lessons, or open cans of coke. Schools provide smoking areas for over-16s and (get this) kids are allowed to write their own absence notes!

When my younger cousins hear that most halfway decent English secondary schools forbid eating in class/chewing gum/smoking/makeup they start shrieking blue murder about their individual rights. I've had two of them here this week alternately hooting with laughter and howling in outrage over dd1's new (state) secondary school 'Welcome Pack', which features 2 A4 pages of uniform regulations (skirts must be knee length or below; blazers must be worn at all times unless a teacher gives permission for their removal -- you get the drift) and a further two A4 pages of school rules (girls may eat small snacks discreetly on the way home. Chips, burgers etc may not be eaten at any time while in school uniform. Etc)

But actually, and although Uk politicians like to hold up Gm secondary system as an example of good practice, most parents of 2ndary age children spend a lot, really a lot, of time complaining. A particular gripe is that there seems to be a high level of teacher absence, and because the school are not 'in loco parentis' in the way that an English school is, the lesson is just cancelled and kids sent home -- there doesn't seem to be a system of 'cover' in the way there is in England. Generally there seems to be a feeling that it's all a bit slack, both in terms of what the school do and what they expect of pupils, and there is a lack the fairly tight pastoral systems that operate in English schools which means that lazy or underachieving kids may not be picked up on. Sending your child to an English boarding school for the Lower 6th has become a v. popular route for upper-middle class Germans who can afford it.

What gets me with these "Full Day Schools" they're introducing here in Berlin is : how are they supposed to counteract the academic failures noted in the Pisa Test? I mean if it's the same lessons till midday and just say sport every afternoon, how will a child be achieving more than in a half-day school? Can't get my brain around that one.

I don't have first-hand experience of a German primary school yet but my daughter has music lessons which take place in a "Kunst-betoente" primary school where they place extra focus on art. I'm very impressed with it. We were there yesterday in fact and I was wondering whether I shouldn't have registered dd there instead. They have lovely grounds, big play area, the children have done a wonderful job planting and decorating the grounds.

Whenever we're there, I see kids repainting the walls, the paintings are fantastic (dinasours, Am. Indians, knights and dragons...), there is always new artwork on display and they seem to have very creative afternoon activities. I also like the English work that is displayed there. It's different every week and I had the impression the teachers go to a lot of trouble to make it innovative and fun.

I think though here so much depends on the teacher(s) you get. I do feel for them though sometimes; the other mums I know often speak really disparagingly of teachers (typical for Germany I think?) and I bet they get a hard time of it from parents on the whole.

What gets me with these "Full Day Schools" they're introducing here in Berlin is : how are they supposed to counteract the academic failures noted in the Pisa Test? I mean if it's the same lessons till midday and just say sport every afternoon, how will a child be achieving more than in a half-day school? Can't get my brain around that one.

I don't have first-hand experience of a German primary school yet but my daughter has music lessons which take place in a "Kunst-betoente" primary school where they place extra focus on art. I'm very impressed with it. We were there yesterday in fact and I was wondering whether I shouldn't have registered dd there instead. They have lovely grounds, big play area, the children have done a wonderful job planting and decorating the grounds.

Whenever we're there, I see kids repainting the walls, the paintings are fantastic (dinasours, Am. Indians, knights and dragons...), there is always new artwork on display and they seem to have very creative afternoon activities. I also like the English work that is displayed there. It's different every week and I had the impression the teachers go to a lot of trouble to make it innovative and fun.

I think though here so much depends on the teacher(s) you get. I do feel for them though sometimes; the other mums I know often speak really disparagingly of teachers (typical for Germany I think?) and I bet they get a hard time of it from parents on the whole.