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Education

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Would you be prepared to pay more tax to get better state education for all?

706 replies

happygardening · 26/02/2013 16:53

Any other suggestions welcome to ensure that all where ever they live and whatever their background have access to education of the highest quality.

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seeker · 28/02/2013 22:59

Actually,I did forget to say that I do think there is an argument children who are so clever that it amounts to an AEN might benefit from being in a school with other similar children. Like the exceptionally talented sportsmen and musicians and dancers and so on. But that's not what people are talking about when they talk about selective schools is it?

seeker · 28/02/2013 23:00

Oh, and can we clarify something here? "Comprehensive" does not mean "mixed ability"

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 28/02/2013 23:05

Well, it means children of mixed ability are allowed through the door: just not that they'll always be in the same classroom, right?

happygardening · 28/02/2013 23:10

But TOSN to me it makes sense that academic Husain Bolts are educated together they are probably quite happy to play say tennis with Fred Average rather than Andy Murray because unlike Xenia I don't think that being academically gifted does mean that your necessarily gifted or even very able in other areas.

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seeker · 28/02/2013 23:11

Sorry- does not mean "mixed ability teaching" but does mean that children with IQs of 120 and 100 will be aware of each other's existence.

happygardening · 28/02/2013 23:14

But if your in the top 0.1% then or even higher then how many like minded individuals are there going to be in your average comp?
Secondly of course these children are aware others exist no one lives at school 24 hours a day 365 days of the year.

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seeker · 28/02/2013 23:14

absolutely happy. The Usain Bolts of the mathematics world have maths lessons together. Then they go to Art, or music or French, and discover that, surprise surprise, the Eddie the eagle of maths is actually the Usain Bolt of painting, drawing or ordering beer on the French exchange.

seeker · 28/02/2013 23:17

Happy- you can't devise an education system designed to benefit 0.1% of then cohort! Of course that 0.1%!hqs to be catered for, but you can't base the whole system round their needs!

WorriedTeenMum · 28/02/2013 23:19

There a number of advantages to fully setted comprehensive education. Some examples:

  • funding is normally per student. The PE budget for a single student might buy a bean bag which isnt used most of the time. Grouping funding together allows more and better facilities to be bought. Then because of student numbers these facilities to be fully utilised.

  • a larger school is able to offer greater choice in courses with fewer timetabling clashes.

  • setting in all subjects allows students to be in the 'right' set for each subject. Students can move through sets as they grow and change. The top set in year 10 isnt chosen by the results in a test taken on one day in year 6.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 28/02/2013 23:20

The real Bolt of maths would probably not be the real Bolt of English.

grovel · 28/02/2013 23:21

teacherwith2kids, what struck me about educating my son at Eton was how aware he was of the intellectual pecking order even within a highly selective school. He knew that some As at A level (he was the last year before A*s) were infinitely superior to others. Undermines achievement or develops competition or just realism?

I don't think independent school endowments would help that much. Eton (possibly the richest school) has, I think, £160 million. Taking 1300 Eton boys through the state system would cost the state £33 million over 5 years. So no payback in the long term and somebody would need a grant to maintain their 70 listed buildings.

If I could have been sure that my son would be like two of his (4) housemates at university (who went to Comprehensives) he would not have gone to Eton and we would be feeling rather better about our retirement.

happygardening · 28/02/2013 23:25

I'm not devising a whole education system around the top .1% you asked why they should be educated seperately. I'm interested in how you can provide a quality broad and stimulating education for the vast majority. I'd pay more taxes if that would do it but may be its not about money maybe it's more complicated than that.

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WorriedTeenMum · 28/02/2013 23:27

The use of setting rather than streaming allows the wizz at maths to be dyslexic and receive appropriate teaching in English language and be in top set for English Lit.

Explanation: my DH is very strong in maths and dyslexic to the point where he cant write a cheque but reads far better quality literature than I do.

seeker · 28/02/2013 23:30

Well, it seems to me that whenever I ask why clever children should be educated in separate schools, people either say "because the outliers need to be with their peers" or "because everyone who doesn't have an IQ of 120 or over is a knuckle dragger". Neither of which strike me as acceptable explanations.

WorriedTeenMum · 28/02/2013 23:33

I agree that the problem of state education wont be solved simply by throwing money at it. In my view there needs to be some serious rethinking without pre-judging what needs to change and what forms those changes should take.

happygardening · 28/02/2013 23:38

Do you not agree that academic/music/ballet/sporting etc outliers should be "educated" with their peers or do you think it's unecessary? I've never made the knuckle dragging comment in fact I don't thing being an outlier is always that great not necessarily something to wish on your children.

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seeker · 28/02/2013 23:41

There is certainly an argument for outliers to be educated with their academic peers- I think. I'm still not sure from a social point of view. But as I said, you are talking 0.1%. What about everyone else?

grovel · 28/02/2013 23:42

WorriedTeenMum, you're right. No-one here is mentioning the unions. Take a look at their websites and see if you think they're prepared to embrace radical change. I'd much rather negotiate with teacherwith2kids . She seems practical and committed.

happygardening · 28/02/2013 23:53

If and I mean if a broadand stimulating education can be provided where expectations for all are high from all backgrounds and it's not all about what we know as the 3Rs then for all apart from the outliers/significant SEN etc then I'm in favour of comprehensive education.

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FillyPutty · 01/03/2013 01:35

I don't think there are many schools that will properly stretch a child with a maths IQ of 150+.

By definition such schools must be few in number, since statistically there would be 300 children of this ability in the UK in each year, but 3127 state secondary schools in the UK, so statistically most schools would not have even one such child.

Tasmania · 01/03/2013 02:06

seeker

Setting the way you see it might seem good. But it's very idealistic. Before I went to my 'grammar'-type school, my middle school (which was in a more socially mixed area than my primary school) was based on 'setting'. Your final 'set level' had a big say as to which school teachers would recommend you for - yes, there were no big exams, it was your performance at middle school and your teachers who made that decision for you.

Not every subject was 'set'. They saw no need to do 'setting' in subjects like History or Physics which we've only just started, so there was no prior track record to base our level of knowledge on. The weird thing is - as different as Maths and English may be - the 'top set' was almost always the same.

And do you know what the problem with that school was?

The feeling - the ambience around you - the majority of people just generally were not into "working". As a "bright kid" you were in the minority. It just was not "cool". You may say, it doesn't matter, because you use "setting". But you don't spend all your school day in class. You have breaks, and in those breaks, being in the "top set" was a cruel thing. The brighter students generally struggled, and became quite introvert. Their confidence plummeted. I did have a few friends who were not in the "top set" - more middle, let's say - and though I think they would have benefitted from an environment where working well would have been appreciated, they often found themselves being pulled the other way - which happened to be where the majority was.

I think a lot of people make the mistake of saying that the "less bright kids" are the minority, and could thus be "pulled up" by the bright ones. Well, I think it's actually the other way around. You only have to watch movies set in high school to figure out that the bright kids - the nerds - form the minority. And there's a far greater likelihood that in the spirit of "belonging", they will dumb down.

I can see that some children may be good at sport and not in academia - because one is a physical activity, and the other a mental one. There will be quite a few who are good in both. However, when it comes to "academia" on its own, it is rare (we're talking dyslexic properties, etc.) to find someone who is excellent in one, but who will completely, majorly screw up the other. People good in Maths, for example, are widely believed to be better in Music. People doing PhDs in Maths / Physics, still have to be able to write a thesis. And have you seen the art work produced at some of these academically selective schools? They are - more often than not - amazing! And yet, if academically gifted children were not meant to be artistic, then that should not be the case. Once you get children who are well above the average, you do tend to have people who will be good at many subjects, and not just one. They also tend to be rather competitive.

When I do see a child who is fantastic in one thing and really bad to the point of failing in another, I do have hope that it is because of something quite tangible. Often, this is because very early on in their schooling, the foundations were not done correctly. I've once helped a friend's young DS who was apparently appalling in maths, which was surprising, because he otherwise seemed like a bright child. After a bit of probing, it turned out, he didn't really understand how division worked. So he couldn't understand the more complex things, and basically just gave up - to the point of hating the subject. After a few weeks of going back to basics, he progressed quite rapidly. I see this kind of problem happening a lot with languages particularly (which is not taught very well in state schools within this country), which is probably why not many British school children take languages for A-levels.

And I just wanted to add that happygardening is not alone in her plight with the schooling of her DS. He aced some kind of intelligence test when he was little, and his state primary suggested his parents should move to the private sector. What do you do if you have a child for whom state schools cannot cater to.

Tasmania · 01/03/2013 02:22

And you know... the argument that "being in the same school" would make people who may (or may not) one day lead the country feel more compassion for those less fortunate than them... there's a flaw in that.

It is partly because of my experience of not being treated well by those who were "not into education" when I was younger that I don't particularly warm up to the idea of necessarily having to help them out at my expense. They may be perfectly reasonable adults now, because kids can be remarkably cruel, but it still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm not sure I'm the only one either. Someone who would never have had my experience, may be a lot more open-minded to the comprehensive system as suggested here by some posters.

seeker · 01/03/2013 06:06

So, basically. Tasmania, you are in the "I don't want my children educated with the knuckle draggers" camp.

Now, this pesky question about why, if selective education is so good, wholly selective LEAs don't do significantly better than the non selective ones?

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 01/03/2013 06:12

Because in the wholly selective LEAS presumably onlyl25% or so are selected and the other 75% are sent to inferior sec mods?? Secondary moderns are my reason for hating selective education (BTW I went to a comprehensive school, having passed the 11 plus but choosing not to take my grammar school place.... )

seeker · 01/03/2013 06:42

Absolutely. So basically, the selective system doesn't mean the top 25% bright kids do significantly better, but does mean the other 75% do slightly worse. So why do people think it's so fantastic?

And I know that not all selective models have the 25/75 split, but that is the system that used to operate all over England and I think what people mean when they talk about how wonderful grammar schools are.

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