If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector cont.

[happygardening]

Thought I repost the OP although the debate has moved on a little .
It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

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I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

and

A few years ago I was employed to sit with a yr10/11 child in every lesson for a couple of months (covering mat leave) at a well regarded grammar school... But what struck me was the lack of debate/discussion.

I haven't read this entire thread but when I read the above, they strongly resonated with me. In fact, someone I know who is involved in Oxbridge admission (as it goes, for Maths), and I hear time and time again how candidates were not up to scratch. The one reason I know to be true with science subjects specifically is - I believe - the way teachers are recruited in the UK state school system. Forgive me if I'm wrong as I didn't go to secondary school here, but while DH was doing his PhD (in a heavy science subject), some of his 'colleagues' actually wanted to go on and teach that subject in a normal, state school. One might say, even, that throughout their PhDs, they were rather left-leaning. Guess what - after finishing their PhD one went to teach at a local private secondary school and the other at Harrow. The main reason for this being that the state school system required them to do a teacher's training course - which is stupid, in my point of view, considering they have been teaching undergraduates for a few years by that point. Then, I hear from some people that some teachers at a state school do not even have a degree in the subject they are teaching!!!

How do you expect such a teacher to teach that subject? Or even teach it BEYOND the A-level syllabus (for that, I would expect someone to actually have studied beyond a first degree as you need to be quite well ahead of those you are actually teaching)?

Also, when I did come here to study (top uni often featuring in these threads), I was a little alarmed that a lot of my contemporaries from the state (mostly grammar) school sector who got straight A's were nowhere near as confident as their private school counterparts. Where I went to school (abroad), participation in class (debates, discussions, etc.) accounted for 50% of your grade. So, in very rough terms, let's say you got an A on your exam paper, but you were mute in class - the best you could ever hope for was a B-/C+. So the second statement quoted above must be right...

Haha.

I love the left-leaning teachers who go teach and get 'cured' by the scrotes in the local comp.

I know one pair of Guardian readers who were both teachers in North London. It was horrendous. They moved to the country, she to have kids, and he to work in the City.

FWIW, I think some subjects tend to be more left-leaning than others, English and Humanities more so than Maths and Sciences. I reckon, talking out my arse here mind, that the leftie English teachers would probably be more likely to go to try and 'inspire' the local kids at the state comp whereas the maths and science teachers would be less concerned about such ideological concerns and would head off to the leafy private school.....

*My understanding is that Durham, Bristol and some other universities have the same problems as Oxbridge in getting applications from kids from low-income families/comprehensive schools.

They don't interview.

They don't wear gowns to dine or to sit exams.*

Oh - they do interview some these days. And in case of the former, the bl**dy hell do wear gowns for formals!!!

... not that I mind the gowns and interviews.

Seriously, every kid in this generation has watched Harry Potter, so a gown should be no deterrent.

And interviews - they better get used to it earlier rather than later!!!

"I love the left-leaning teachers who go teach and get 'cured' by the scrotes in the local comp."

I can't believe I actually read that sentence. "Scrotes in the local comp"

Fuck me.

Of course you can use it, seeker! it's a phrase often applied to me, especially when I'm about to depart for Forn Parts (as now) with my material most decidedly Not Written.

What can she use? Fuck me or scrote?

Read the thread!

thanknyou mordion- I've never heard it before and I love it. I thought it was your own!

I don't know why, but the "scrotes" comment has really knocked the stuffing out of me- how could anyone use a word like that about a class of 11 year old's?

But she can call me a scrote if she wants, too.

If I leant any more left, I'd fall over.

It is my own. But my colleagues embraced it with glee. In my organisation there is an entire vocabulary they call mordionspeak. It's necessary to be fluent in it to get the best out of my stuff.

You have to say sucking gloomsink to get the full impact though. My dark tea times of the soul (that ones Douglas adams's) can infect an entire office. Oh yes.

Actually scrote is a very usual norf London term. It's quite mild. Honestly.

What happens in usa how many state schools get into ivy league harvard and yale is it problem exclusive to uk?

While the very rich do send their kids to private schools in the U.S., some of them don't. The reason? The quality of state schools are heavily dependent on the area that surrounds them - and I mean not just because of the social class of their catchment area, but financially... with PTA 'donations' PER CHILD often going in the thousands (so despite it being a 'state school', it still is sort of privately funded). A lot of people move into a wealthy area to provide their kids with a good education, even if it means packing a family of four into a tiny 2-bed flat because they can't afford anything else. The famous Beverly High is a state school, same goes for Malibu High... and loads of film stars send their kids there. I went to school in the 'posh part of town' in the U.S. for a while, and couldn't quite believe the difference to the other side of town. Might as well have been different cities/countries.

However, prior to the financial crisis, a lot of the posh boarding schools actually offered their spaces needs blind, i.e. if your kid passes admission, the school will move heaven and earth (via their endowment fund) to enable him/her to study there. That's why you get amazing stories about kids coming from the ghetto to these schools, often studying in the tiny family bathroom for the entrance exam because there's no other place in the house. A very, very large proportion (we're talking up to about 80%) of students at those schools are given financial aid (up to 100% of tuition fees and other expenses), so not quite the same as here in the UK, where that system is desirable but doesn't yet exist. I think that sort of guarantee has declined though due to the financial crisis.

Harvard - as far as I am aware - is also needs-blind, when you read the following statement from their website:

In the past decade we have increased financial aid for low and middle income families by over 180%, and in 2011-12 we will award $166M in need-based grant assistance. No contribution is expected from parents with incomes under $65,000. Beginning with the class of 2016, those parents with annual incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 are asked to contribute from zero to ten percent of their income. Some families with incomes above $150,000 still qualify for aid.

I have to say, that's wonderfully generous, and accounts for all those 'poorer' students from the UK applying to the U.S.

A family of 4 in a tiny 2-bed flat is pretty spacious in the UK!

A family of 4 in a tiny 2-bed flat is pretty spacious in the UK!

Not if you hear what people in the UK get subsidized sometimes - something about siblings shouldn't be sharing a room or something...

"If you hear what people in the UK get subsidized sometimes." So, you've "heard" about this. Have you ever met these people? Because I haven't met any of those but I know plenty of people living in tiny flats with several children... how very silly of them not to realise they could be subsidised to live somewhere more spacious.

And bollocks about siblings not sharing a room, anyway. I think the rule is siblings of the opposite sex once they reach a certain age, which does not happen to be the law if you rent privately as the majority of people do - you can have them all sleeping together in the same bed then, so far as I'm aware, which I suspect even in Victorian times was something poor families tended to try and avoid.

(siblings of the opposite sex, I mean, rather than bed sharing with the same sex... ).

I'm not sure if the scrotes were 11 or 16. I didn't probe into it that deeply.

Three of my girls (aged 22, 21 and 20) still have to share when they come home from university and three of my boys do too (18, 16, 15) And then the two smallest share. It's cosy. Well, 'cosy' maybe. It can be quarrelsome tbh (the girls, not the boys) but it's also very clearly survivable. Some people are just so precious.

rabbit those claiming housing benefit will be told how much housing benefit they are entitled too according to how many bedrooms you need this applies if you rent privately or social housing. Children of the opposite sex I think over 11 yrs old are not expected to share a room so if you have 1 boy and 1 girl and wish to claim HB you will be given an allowance that is meant to mean that you can rent a three bedroomed house at the local rate (in practice of course it doesnt) the amount you are entitled to will obviously be less if you have children of the same sex because the council will take the view that you need less bedrooms.?

Yellow Blimey. Eight kids? Are you supermom or what!?!

Not sure why you're telling me, happygardening? It's Tasmania who appears to think people in this country can get subsidies enabling them to ensure every child gets a separate bedroom, regardless of available housing stock or the sex and age of the children, not me...
Yellowtip - who do you think is "so precious"????

The allowance is based on the 30th percentile rent for the area. The area may be Fairly large so in some parts of the area it will be easier to find properties at the HB rate.