If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector cont.

[happygardening]

Thought I repost the OP although the debate has moved on a little .
It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

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But yellow other highly selective schools schools even in the independent sector have similar results in terms of a level grades but a significantly lower number attending top universities Im not sure why. Is it simply becasue these schools are just vastly superior in everything they do? Is the type of parents are they simply more aspirational? Do they just have more experience?

"Never understood how you could ever be intimidated by tradition and old buildings though!"

Really? You must be blessed with extreme self confidence, then! Or perhaps you were brought up with such things?

I don't get intimidated by them - seriously, I don't. In fact, I embrace them!!! But then again - as said - I didn't go to school here prior to uni, and was never marked by the class system that seems to be well and truly alive and kicking.

But from an outsider's point of view... why on earth do you need extreme self confidence to NOT be intimidated by tradition and old buildings? Celebrating Christmas/Hanukkah, etc. is a tradition. I guess no one minds that. A building is something humans built.

When I was in my secondary school (abroad), our Art teacher once showed us two buildings - one built in the 18th century and one was one of those modern 60s buildings. He asked us which one we preferred. To his astonishment the whole class of eight (!!!) picked the older building. The teacher was of that generation (probably 60s) who was very pro "out with the old, in with the new" and viewed such old buildings as oppressive. Seems like his younger charges disagreed.

That's one thing - class sizes. I always used to say that the schools my kids would go to should be of the same quality if not better than the ones I went to. Looking around, I would have no other option but going private! At most schools I've been to (mostly in the state sector - but as said, abroad), there were never more than 20 students in one class. Often, just around 8 students. People don't seem to emphasize this enough, but I was always a bit shy as a kid, and that helped!

I guess my answer the the original question of the OP would be, I would go for the state if it provided the same quality education - and class sizes do matter for me.

rabbit I have "moderate" dyslexia and unfortunately cant (can't) spell any word with more than two syllables correctly and also write most words around the wrong way. I have to patiently spell check everything I write which i find tedious and therefore dont (don't) change the obvious Im (I'm) sorry if this irritates you i (I) will try harder in future.
Actually I have sat in a few lessons (not at Winchester/Eton) but at another school there was a marked contrast maybe bought about by the smaller classroom making it easier to spark debate? Also as as governor (past life) I know that the kind of debating encouraged in 7 yr olds at my DS's prep; this house believes etc was certainly not occurring in any primary school in the area I lived in. Don't get me wrong there are some rubbish teachers in all schools and one mans inspirational teacher is another ones nightmare. Some teachers are very like marmite. Also some children hate being asked to debate things finding it very embarrassing I know I did as a teenager.

Sorry, happygardening - it wouldn't normally irritate, it's just the way you talk about grammar school students not knowing what a semi-colon is, etc, that irritated, when you were making so many similar mistakes yourself! Grammar schools actually contain a fair proportion of dyslexics, children with high functioning autism and dyspraxics, given that these disabilities often do go hand in hand with high compensating abilities. I doubt you get such a high proportion of such children in the super selective public schools to which you refer????? It is quite possible, regardless of your education, to be both highly intelligent and worthy academically of a place at a top university, and not brilliant at spelling, grammar or public speaking.

@yellow. No. Cyprus. Flight delayed 2.5 hours and counting. Got up at 5:45. Needlessly it transpires. Material not finished. :(

Rabbit. Indeed. I can't spell. I can't walk across a room without tripping up. I am a brilliant speaker though (which is a shame cos I hate doing it).

I hate to descend to anecdotage, but some on here will have heard already the story of the mother of a friend of my dd's, who was so intimidated by a branch of Waterstone's that she felt unable to ask the person behind the counter for what she wanted. I am fairly sure that without significant support from outside his family, there is no way her very bright child would even think of a "top" university.

Well, when I read that...

There's always Amazon! Only time my parents ever got intimidated buying a book in a shop was when they had to buy me the book for sex education!

How come some first generation immigrants (probably not as well off as the woman mentioned in the anecdote above) push their kids to the top while the ones who seem to be British (which I'm guessing the woman above is) don't??

In my younger days of staying late at work in London, I used to talk a lot to this couple employed as cleaners there (because I often used to be the last one in). Their English wasn't great, but they had this sense of positivity about them which was admirable. They were holding two jobs down, and were putting a LOT of effort into their son's education (wouldn't be surprised if they sent their kid to private school with scholarship/bursary). They were so proud when he got the best marks, etc. in his year that they'd actually tell me. Just knowing his parents, I know that kid will one day go far in life. I wished more parents were like that rather than be negative, be intimidated, etc. ...and make their kid believe that nothing is out of their reach.

rabbit You might be interested to know that Winchester has a reputation for taking boys with dyslexia aspergers dyspraxia and high functioning autism. It recognises that the brilliant are not necessarily the most "normal".
I was considered by my school to be not worthy of a place at any university becasue of my complete inability to spell, use grammar and write in a coherent and organised fashion. It is in fact going to university that changed that I learnt to write in a significantly more organised and coherent fashion spell check of course had been invented and my DH corrected the grammatical errors. When we did joint assignments by the end fellow students would often say you write it because we cant write like you and we'll find somehow a way of correcting the punctuation and grammatical errors.

Maybe I'll change my mind about where to send my ds1, then.

Bonsoir, you are descending into self parody now. You may need to rein in the personality you have created- there is a limit to the credulity of even a mumsnet audience. Well done, though, this is the first false step.

I see nothing wrong with what Bonsoir said. Architecture is everywhere around you. It's (mostly) free for you to enjoy! The thing with "old buildings" is that hardly any builder will be able to build them to same quality these days as well. They make you feel like time has frozen - the next best thing to having a time machine.

Unless, of course, you don't think architecture is anything to enjoy... mainly due to inverted snobbery???

"How come some first generation immigrants (probably not as well off as the woman mentioned in the anecdote above) push their kids to the top while the ones who seem to be British (which I'm guessing the woman above is) don't??"

I think you are perpetuating a myth here. Loads of first generation immigrants don't- and loads of indigenous working class people do. But it's very easy to forget that there are more obstacles to overcome than just the academic one's. And denying that there are just entrenches the divide.

Also, loads of first generation immigrants are middle class people with middle class aspirations- just no able to get middle class jobs.

I don't think it's inverted snobbery to feel intimidated by hallowed halls - more like harking back to the days when there was a servants' entrance and a main entrance and certain places the working classes were not at all welcome. "It's not for the likes of you" is not the same thing as "it's all a load of stuffy, pretentious rubbish, anyway."

"I see nothing wrong with what Bonsoir said. Architecture is everywhere around you. It's (mostly) free for you to enjoy! The thing with "old buildings" is that hardly any builder will be able to build them to same quality these days as well. They make you feel like time has frozen - the next best thing to having a time machine.

Unless, of course, you don't think architecture is anything to enjoy... mainly due to inverted snobbery???"

Now that just is a little bit of a silly thing to say!

Just imagine yourself having to go for an interview in a great gothic pile- if you have barely stepped out of your 60s council block except to go to your 60s school. When you have only seen buildings like that on TV programmes narrated by people with posh accents and what seems like unobtainable knowledge, or inhabited by the "Upstairs" folk in Upstairs Downstairs. And if you are surrounded in the "waiting room" for the interview by confident seeming public school folk....... Do you think you would do well?

Actually, I know what you're going to say. You are going to say that, yes, of course you would, because seeing that would make you determined to show that you were as good as them, and all the rest of it. That's great, if you are that sort of person, but not everyone is.

Also, loads of first generation immigrants are middle class people with middle class aspirations- just no able to get middle class jobs.

Oh - so the fact that you were born "working class" in the UK and "middle class" abroad, but essentially sit in the same boat over here... makes a difference? Unless working class people and middle class people are completely different species, this doesn't make sense. Aspiration is all in your head really. This sounds a lot like those "This has always been the case, and will always be. Why change?" comments that are infuriating.

It is not necessarily a myth that first generation immigrants aspire to better things. Unless another country will offer you better things, you may never move! Of course, there are those who come to another country, just want to make money and go back home. And there will be those who will inevitably be stuck in a rut. But, by and large, most people moving will have wanted a better future at the beginning of their journey.

If you look at history - a lot of scientists who won Nobel prizes, etc. earlier in the century were the children of first generation immigrants. They were pushed to achieve greater things (and were given plenty of opportunities). There will be some who never make it that far (as not all kids are academic or street-wise to become a financial success), but the fact is that at least some will try.

Not sure how the world of science would look like if they never tried!!!

Actually, I know what you're going to say. You are going to say that, yes, of course you would, because seeing that would make you determined to show that you were as good as them, and all the rest of it. That's great, if you are that sort of person, but not everyone is.

Funny - you seem to know me well. The school I last went to was in a 50s building (although mostly because their nice old building was bombed way back in time - our sister school across the road where I did have a few classes was in a building that could have been part of Oxbridge - it was a state school, too). I always had a penchant for older buildings. Always felt more at home and cosy in them than the newer ones. Not sure why.

The fact that people get intimidated by old buildings because of things they watch on TV... that does suggest to me that one watches TV too much.

Surely, almost by definition, an immigrant is someone who "doesn't know their place"? Knowing your place in society can be very destructive if "your place" is firmly at the bottom, so of course it makes a difference if you were brought up to assume you would always be a bottom feeder rather than being brought up to assume that if you take your formidable talents elsewhere and work very hard, someone will have to recognise you for what you really are, eventually. The greater your reserves of self esteem, the longer you can keep banging your head against the apparent brick wall before you give up - if the brick wall exists, that is. All social structures are in peoples' minds - they are created by people. The mind is FAR more powerful than reality...

Tasmania - have you ever tried to imagine what it must be like to be someone else? It honestly doesn't sound as if you have!

I come from a working-class background, left school at 16 and worked in a factory. I went back into eduction by accident (long story). I now have three degrees (BA first, MA distinction, PhD) all from RG universities. The PhD was financed through a ESRC scholarship which was won in a national competition for funding. I am an established academic with a track record of winning research funding and publications.

Yet despite all this, there is still a part of my soul that feels I have no legitimate right to these qualifications and position (despite the fact that I worked bloody hard for them and earned them) and that at some point this will be discovered and they will be removed. This is because of my classed identity and is an established phenomenon (Diane Reay among others has written about this extensively). I don't act on these feelings, but that doesn't make them any less real.

Rabbit's right about the power of the mind, but I'd add to it as yes it's about self esteem, but it's also about expectation. You don't bang your head against the brick wall and keep trying if you don't know you have permission to bang at all. My family wasn't at all aspirational and I had no idea that a) I could be, or b) what that meant even. I passed to go to the grammar school and went on to a good university, but it still took me until I was in my thirties to realise I might actually be able to do whatever I wanted to.

Seeker - As I said, I didn't grow up in this country. Where I did grow up (lived in several countries actually!) there are plenty of people who are considered "working class" but don't so much think about their place in society. It seems to almost be endemic to the UK!

That said, the grammar school system is everywhere over there, and it's the complete opposite: if you tried to abolish it, there would be an outcry, because by sending your kid to a grammar school if you're working class he/she can better him/herself. Hence, moving up society isn't seen as something nobody can achieve.

So pardon me, if I find it weird that other countries do not quite have such a rigid class structure. Because just because that's what seems to be the norm here in the UK - it doesn't make it right!

So I'd rather say positive things - like say "Look, this person has made it... so why not you?" which should motivate people... rather than say "Pity that, they're intelligent, but will never make it because of this and that."

Tasmina In all my years studying sociology have never come across a country or culture without some form of elite/other structure, although it might not be class-based in the way it is in the UK (eg in many cases in India caste is the more important divide)

In the UK it is more openly acknowledged than other places, but it is pretty universal.

Tasmania - now try to change the mindset of an entire nation...

Ok seeker I can buy into this argument:
*Just imagine yourself having to go for an interview in a great gothic pile- if you have barely stepped out of your 60s council block except to go to your 60s school. When you have only seen buildings like that on TV programmes narrated by people with posh accents and what seems like unobtainable knowledge, or inhabited by the "Upstairs" folk in Upstairs Downstairs. And if you are surrounded in the "waiting room" for the interview by confident seeming public school folk....... Do you think you would do well?"
But what do you suggest is done about it? I haven't of the top of my head got any idea.

"Maybe I'll change my mind about where to send my ds1, then"
Maybe you should they also offer generous bursaries to those who meet their entrance criteria.

"All medical schools interview . . . "

Not true.

Some don't.