If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector...

[TheseJeansHaveShrunk]

It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

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Boris Johnson is a man of incredible intellect and talents. Whether or not you like him, surely it is impossible to deny that?

Nope - sorry. I'd ask you for evidence but, of course, you don't deal with that pesky stuff Bonsoir.

The overwhelming evidence for Boris's intelligence which is a seperate issue from his politics, ability as Mayor or even future PM is that he was a Kings Scholar into Eton. I am no Eton fan but cannot deny that even in his day this was only awarded to the super bright.

Boris appeals to the masses it's nothing to do with being an Old Etonian he's an exceedingly intelligent and astute politician and like the emperor Nero who gave the Romans games and bread he's giving the mases what they want and they as he knows they love him for it.

It has everything to do with him coming from Eton as (what a coincidence!) did the prime minister, his chief of staff, the chancellor's chief economic adviser and leader of the House of Commons all happen to have attended exactly the same one. And (what a coincidence!) so did nineteen of the 55 prime ministers since Walpole.

As for 'giving the masses what they want', this is precisely what I find so depressing. There is a huge legacy of deference and nostalgia in this country. If Boris is what we want, God help us. But not in my name.

Do you really think the fact that Bkriwnis an old Etonian is what makes him so popular with general population? The man is different he's crass tactless non PC and appears to not give a shit. He personality wise is everything that the last government and the vast majority of this government aren't. I've met him briefly and informally before he bacame such a big name and was just busy ruining the Spectator by making that crass and appealing to the pseuds in their tweeds He is undoubtedly has enourmous charisma is amusing and urbane and highly articulate and frankly someone who if you met at a party most would find good fun. I still can't stand him but can see why people are taken in by him.

And the British public dearly love a toff.

It's all about entrenched privilege. I think this thread has gone full circle!

Happygardener, you asked for my experience (and said that you assumed I had none) I responded to you but you have not bothered responding...

Sorry twisted I did read you posting and should acknowledged it and you experimece of indepdnent ed. I also meant to apologise for stating that you asked me something which you didn't. Ive taken my hat back off to you its very admirable to stick by your ideology through thick and thin I sincerely hope that your DC's have an excellent experience at their schools

Thank you happy gardening- what a nice post!

Twisted contrary to what many might think I am not a right wing knee jerk bigot but like many a mixture of views crossing a wide spectrum of both left and right although many of my beliefs are underpinned by my extreme left liberal upbringing. I fully understand your position and ideology and as i said admire you for it but sadly have found myself unable to actually stand by it through thick and thin. I do not and have not ever regretted my choice of school for one of my DS's but am aware that not standing by my ideogy is a failing on my part but then to fail is to be human.

fivecandles there clearly isn't a seamless progression from Eton to Oxford or Cambridge or 70% of Etonians wouldn't fail to get in.

I'm sure there are plenty of other students who see subfusc as neutral. Masses probably. I think you're overstating the entrenched privilege thing. I thought the idea of wearing a 'uniform' during exams was to improve concentration anyhow, so that's quite sensible really, since the exams at Oxford are pretty tough.

I think one can overstate the handshake thing these days too. Intelligence and being interesting and having a decent work ethic will get you further.

The handshake is just ludicrous. My DP and I are both in powerful "old school/university" networks (and we met through an alumni network) and use them all the time because those are the people we get on with - the selection process and the training you receive in certain academic and business environments are so strong that you inevitably share a way of functioning with people who have done similar.

The thing is, many parents would cut their right arms off for their dcs to go to Oxbridge precisely because of the nice old buildings and all the traditions and, let's be honest, the whole whiff of Brideshead and toffs and Bullingdon and so on.

Let's say all the Oxford colleges are handed over to the University of the North West and Oxford is relocated to new modern premises next to Amazon near Milton Keynes. Admission is by banding and postcode lottery. Its appeal would go straight down the drain and those braying for fair access wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

I really don't know any parents who are in love with the Brideshead image. The ancient architecture perhaps - not the old-fashioned attitudes.

letty what a fab idea, a warehouse next to amazon - you are spot on. I am perplexed at how seemingly the whole country is obsessed with Downton Abbey, which I have never seen, nor have the shightest desire to see - sugar-coated nostalgia of the 'good' ol' days...

Old fashioned ideas like the tutorial system are great. New dangled ideas like working plumbing are also great. As far as my college goes, they have successfully kept the old stuff that is good, junked the old stuff that wasn't ( or isn't any longer) and introduced new ideas as necessary. Seems to work just fine.

"As far as my college goes, they have successfully kept the old stuff that is good, junked the old stuff that wasn't ( or isn't any longer) and introduced new ideas as necessary."

Indeed. Intelligent people who have the brains to leave things well alone when they work and to modernise/update when they no longer do and they can think of better alternatives.

'My DP and I are both in powerful "old school/university" networks (and we met through an alumni network) and use them all the time because those are the people we get on with '

Duh! That's exactly my point. And no doubt it's also what David Cameron says when asked why the prime minister, his chief of staff, the chancellor's chief economic adviser and leader of the House of Commons all happen to have attended exactly the same school when there are quite a few other in the country. As did nineteen of the 55 prime ministers since Walpole!

Wake up and smell the coffee, Bonsoir.

And how do you think we got into those networks, fivecandles?

'there clearly isn't a seamless progression from Eton to Oxford or Cambridge or 70% of Etonians wouldn't fail to get in.'

Then 30% DO get in??

Not a very successful argument that one is it?

It's been widely documented that 5 schools get as many kids into Oxbridge as all of the rest of the schools in the country put together.

Whatever your position, it's downright stupid to deny or downplay the influence of these British bastions of power in education.

'And how do you think we got into those networks, fivecandles?'

Erm, pretty obvious really isn't it. Privilege perpetuates privilege. Yes, there will always be someone who is or knows someone who bucks the trend and is actually a child of Tesco checkout people but the overwhelming majority of people who get in to Oxbridge and who go to really high performing schools (including state schools that are really high up in the league tables) have come from privileged backgrounds on a sliding scale.

What would be your motivation is trying to deny or underplay this?

"The handshake is just ludicrous. My DP and I are both in powerful "old school/university" networks (and we met through an alumni network) and use them all the time because those are the people we get on with - the selection process and the training you receive in certain academic and business environments are so strong that you inevitably share a way of functioning with people who have done similar."

Er- the best description of the "old boy network" I have read for a long time..........

MrsSalvo, I was going to make the point about Downton Abbey and its like. If you want evidence of how much deference there still is and how much British culture seems to enjoy forelock tugging, then that programme, where the servants know their place and love their masters, together with good old Boris and, of course, the obsession with the royal family however stupid and badly behaved they all are, is it.

It's a good one that isn't it Seeker? On the one hand saying that the old boy network is all a myth and on the other, saying that it worked really well for me and mine!

The whole thing would be laughable if it weren't so tragic that working class kids continue to be prevented from accessing great education and positions of power while dimwits born with silver spoons continue to rule the country.