If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector...

[TheseJeansHaveShrunk]

It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

.

Was I trying to prove anything countrykitten?

Frankly I dont actually believe that the ISI reports are worth the paper they're written on. The old prep was unrecognisable from the ISI description and I know they actually lied about comments from the parent questionnaire!
I would only let one of those influence my decision if I was concerned about numbers boarding etc. and even those numbers can be hopelessly out of date.

county teaching maybe different if so your bloody lucky. Perhaps I should retrain as a teacher. Four strings to my bow I will be sough after in developing countries .

countrykitten - I'm not stupid, you know, I know independent schools are inspected by the ISI. If you really think that the best selective private schools are better than the best selective state schools, or the best non-selective private schools better than the best non-selective state schools, then make sure you limit your comments to that, rather than appearing to wax lyrical about private education in general, which just makes you sound like a tiresome evangelist.

"now seeing it held up as a paragon of virtue for the bloated state to copy"
rabbit there are some good practices in the private sector that the state could copy but at the end of the day money or lack of it and bureaucracy creating as in my line of work a one size fits all approach will always restrict the state sector.

Money restricts both state and private sectors - you don't get private sector innovation where there is no perceived financial gain, however worthy the cause.

mrz - if you are not trying to prove anything then why quote lots of nonsense from a govt website?

happygardening I am not sure how I have upset you - from your posts I thought you were a teacher who was leaving state education as a result of all of the govt interference. My apologies as I seem to have misunderstood you altogether and thought I was posting in support of you. Perhaps I therefore deserve the less than polite tone of your post.

rabbitstew I have repeatedly said that I fully support state education and would like to be better than it is. I don't think I have waxed lyrical and I have tried to present my points through what I have experienced myself. I do not see the need to become abusive in your posting - it makes you look bad rather than anyone else.

Perhaps you are not really interested in what a teacher has to say regarding this issue as it does not fit with your own prejudices and (rather fixed) ideas and it's possibly easier to go on believing what you believe than face up to another viewpoint grounded in experience. Your choice.

countrykitten - sorry, but you come across as exceptionally condescending and I find you offensive, albeit I am aware this is not your intention. I have read many viewpoints from many people on mumsnet and you come across to me as a patronising evangelist whose posts are only polite on the surface.

Perhaps if you didn't position yourself as the sole expert and me as an idiot with immoveable ideas, you wouldn't be quite so offensive to me. The fact is, I am open to persuasion if I am not patronised.

PenelopePipPop - if I were you, if you, as you say, an admissions tutor at a university, I should ask MNHQ to remove your post where you make the following admission of professional incompetence:

"that they shouldn't bother applying if they can't put down a string of relevant work experience on the personal statement (hate to disappointment but we rarely read them)"

county you haven't upset me, it takes a lot to upset me and Im too upset about the changes in my profession to be really upset by comments on MN and if I gave you the impression you have Im sorry. Im not a teacher but am a professional who works with children. I do fully support the independent sector DS2 is at IMO a wonderful unique top super selective boys boarding school but having been a parent for now nearly 13 years in the independent sector I am painfully aware that in many cases its not as perfect as many believe and hope when sending their DC's.
I and others was surprised and saddened to learn a few years ago just how inaccurate those ISI reports can be and would now warm anyone to read with care and not believe everything that is written.

"you don't get private sector innovation where there is no perceived financial gain,"
Sad but true but maybe Im wrong but it seems to me one of the problem in the state sector is under funding especially when compared to the independent sector and this has to have an impact on the quality and breath of the education children receive.
In my old work (state sector) there is no money left we are having to make cuts at every turn it directly impacts on what we are able to do the quality of what we are doing.

Is it nonsense because you don't agree with the research quoted or have you evidence that the research is flawed countrykitten?
I posted it because I thought some people might find it interesting and actually read it.
IMHO/E smaller ability groups do make it easier for the teacher as the research says do you disagree?

happygardening - I agree with you. It takes an awful lot of time to assess and appraise the fit of one's own child to a particular school and official reports and the school's own marketing materials can be very misleading.

I am currently thinking of my own DD's next move (in Paris) and gosh does it take an awful lot of time. The choice is currently narrowed down to two schools, one of which her brothers attend (so we know it very well) and yet I still find myself needing to talk to other parents about it and try to validate the opinions I have formed myself.

happygardening - of course there are some good practices in the private sector which the state could copy. There are also numerous bad practices. Having plenty of experience of global corporations, I have a rather jaded view of how virtuous the private sector really is and how capable it is of dealing with the needs of the mass of humanity on this planet. That doesn't mean I think the state can wade in and solve the problems of the private sector any more than I think the private sector is going to do a good job wading in and taking over from the state. As I say, I am coming to the conclusion that mankind still has a long way to go before it is civilised and state versus private arguments are not going to resolve that issue!

I would take a top quality private school over almost any state school - I say almost because there are some truly exceptional state schools.

rabbitstew - and that is precisely why I think that the state education sector is better for having a private sector (and vice versa). The two provide competition and a mirror for one another and provoke debate and a benchmark.

Happygardening my post regarding ISI reports was made to rabbitstew who was concerned that state schools were labelled by OFSTED and I was pointing out that the same happens to indies too. I am well aware of the shortcomings of reports and was not advocating them as being particularly accurate - just that they exist! I apologise for any misunderstanding here.

rabbistew I find your tone overly defensive as well as rather aggressive at certain points. Perhaps we should agree to differ as I am not overly clear as to what any of your points are in any case.

Fivecandles my experience is actually the opposite of yours. Your posts give the impression that indies are dull/traditional and that state schools are hotbeds of creativity and innovation which I don't agree with. Some are and some are not - schools tend to have their own ethos to a greater or lesser degree.

Penelope what subjects does your university interview for? Or does it interview for all? (interested in your comment about the PS).

Bonsoir- were you going to support your statement that it is proved that comprehensive education disadvantages bright children?

Or have you moved on from that statement now you have been called on it?

Sarah and Penelope I believe that too many teachers can be insufficiently aspirational for their students, especially if they lack a top university education themselves. And that some are cowed by fear of retribution if they they advise a student to aim high and then for whatever reason the student doesn't succeed. An educational version of defensive medicine, which can be sad. Teachers need to be bold, but to be fair to them it's not their life, and perhaps too few parents are bold.

Particularly, obviously, in areas or from socio-economic groups which lack experience of top tier universities, or even any university come to that.

countrykitten - I have to say, I find your tone towards me overly defensive and passive aggressive. And I made no reference to OFSTED whatsoever. I was pointing out that you keep talking about "the private sector" as though the whole sector is a breath of fresh air, whereas the reality is, there are good, bad and indifferent schools in both sectors and it would help your argument if you stopped making such general comments about the private sector having only worked in one (?) highly selective private school to date. How can that make the whole private sector a "breath of fresh air"? My apologies if you actually have as much experience in the private sector as you do in the state sector, but the impression you give is of someone who got jaded by years in the state sector and who is still overawed by the joys of your current school (how long have you been teaching there?) and extrapolating too much from that particular experience.

As for finding it hard to understand what I'm trying to say, that could possibly be because you are trying to force everyone into the position of being on one "side" or the other. Unfortunately for everyone on here, I'm not trying to push any particular agenda, I'm trying to establish who I think has the strongest arguments one way or the other, so where I see a weakness on either side of the argument, I question it. If it is well defended, that sways me more in that direction, as the argument then seems less weak to me - so you could see me as a floating voter. If you are convincing, I will vote for you, if you are patronising and try to tell me what I think, then I won't!

Seeker, don't hold your breath, Bonsoir doesn't support any of her statements. It's all assertion. As with her comment above about the supposed advantages of private schools for state schools. She's completely ignored any requests to support this with evidence and she just ignores any evidence which doesn't fit with her assumptions and prejudices.

I appreciate that the discussion has moved on, but on the off-chance that the OP is still interested in answers to her question :

We chose state education when we could easily have afforded to send all of our DCs to independent schools. We did this because the local state schools are Ofsted 'outstanding' and well regarded by parents locally. I make a point of not wasting money, and at that time felt that they would receive a great education for free - they are bright and hard working, so I thought they would 'do well anywhere'.

Unfortunately we were disappointed and have since moved them all to private schools. They did progress well academically, but I was sick of the crap they had to put up with.