If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector...

[TheseJeansHaveShrunk]

It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

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Teacherwith2kids: parents aren't buying anything in a modern state primary with TAs and parent helpers in Reception and Y1 to get the children reading.

When I was a little girl, my parents sent me to a private school because our local catchment primary (which was considered very good and still is) had 40 pupils in each Y1 class for a single teacher. The school my parents sent me to had about 20 pupils per class. That was the norm in the 1960s. Unsurprisingly, I made great progress. Our next door neighbour's son in the local primary was bored rigid.

Today in the UK we no longer have children starting school in classes of 40 in Y1. We have Reception and we have TAs and parent helpers. Reception is an innovation that was copied from private nurseries (there were none of those when I was little, either) and adult:child ratios were improved as a result of observations from the private sector.

In many countries, those innovations (improvements) have not yet taken place because no-one could observe them working in the private sector.

Or maybe it's the schools you have previously selected, happygardening, in your middle class, rural stronghold?...

'private schools having small class sizes (as a consequence of the fact they have high fees, not as a purposeful pedagogical new idea) '

Teacherwith2kids, I have seen it dressed up as such, even when mixed-aged classes had to be introduced as numbers were so low, and there were parents that fell for it.

'The reason many teachers and parents are drawn to private education is tradition not innovation and don't get me wrong there are advantages to this.'

fivecandles, I agree strongly with this.

Im an innovative professional (not a teacher) brimming with ideas I am 110% committed to those I work with (mainly children) and have been constantly praised by my line managers for it. But I have reluctantly deserted the state sector exhausted and disillusioned in my work, drowning under the weight of paper work (teachers you have no idea but watch out its coming your way we had it for over 20 years) frustrated that Im no longer allowed to use my own judgement (nearly 30 years of experience) and struggling daily with the too may of you and not enough of us scenario. The pasture has in some cases been a little greener and in others the same colour or even browner.

happygardening - that's not just the state sector, that's modern society, state and private.

Although obviously you will solve the too many of them and not enough of us problem by only serving those who can afford to pay.

"Or maybe it's the schools you have previously selected, happygardening, in your middle class, rural stronghold?..."
Should I move back to London to one of the roughest boroughs where we used to live to get decent education with teachers who are able to see a pretty straight forward problem and address it? '
"The reason many teachers and parents are drawn to private education is tradition not innovation and don't get me wrong there are advantages to this."
Well I for one am not paying for tradition (what ever the hell that is).

happygardening - you don't send your children to a bog standard private school .

If the state sector is to be divided up into grammar school, partially selective, top performing, bog standard and failing, I think it only fitting to divide private schools up along those lines and then state which sector you are referring to when commenting!

"Although obviously you will solve the too many of them and not enough of us problem by only serving those who can afford to pay."
Your right rabbit an ethical dilemma for me as Im fully committed to the disadvantaged children I used to work usually more than my colleagues becasue I really know what advantages of having wealth and being able to afford school fees amongst many other things brings.
But I am battered to a point of no return and am no longer prepared to have my professional reputation tainted and threatened by what is now going on in my profession. One person cannot fight whistle blowers are vilified and will not find work again.

It's the same in the private sector, though, happygardening - whistle blowers will never find work again.

Bonsoir-I was expecting you to provide supporting evidence for this statement-
" fully comprehensive education, which is proven to disadvantage the cleverest"

I don't think that's the sort of thing you can say without backing it up!

Frankly, having seen what can go on in the private sector and now seeing it held up as a paragon of virtue for the bloated state to copy, I can only conclude that human beings still have a long way to go before they are truly civilised.

happygardening, are you interested in working in education in Africa or Kazakhstan? Definitely open to innovation and probably without the weight of paperwork.

"you don't send your children to a bog standard private school"
Your right rabbit I dont and until I went there I had no idea how far removed it was from not only the bog standard private school but from most others schools whether they are state or independent.
Why would any one pay just for tradition which I don't know even what it is?

Sarahtigh I know anecdotally that happens. I've heard it from other students too. It is hard to assess the incidence overall.

But from doing admissions I also know that plenty of students at independent schools get told crazy things about admission to our uni - that they won't get in with their A*s because we are biased in favour of students with two Bs from a sink school, that they shouldn't bother applying if they can't put down a string of relevant work experience on the personal statement (hate to disappointment but we rarely read them) etc. So if the only data points we have are anecdotes it is hard to know who is worst off.

To be fair the universities bear massive responsibility for making admissions seem like a dark art too.

Paperwork and protecting your own back versus corruption and lack of control? Hmm.

'The reason many teachers and parents are drawn to private education is tradition not innovation and don't get me wrong there are advantages to this.'

Yes, I agree. Good teaching does not have to be innovative. One of the advantages to the very traditional primary level education my sons had was that they were required to concentrate and also to sit exams from an early age. I have never once had to remind or encourage either of them to do homework at secondary school, getting on with it is simply instinct. Learning the basics in all subjects well is vital if they are to suceed at higher levels.

"are you interested in working in education in Africa or Kazakhstan"
Yes yes yes but have to finnish paying the bloody school fees first! My plan when all this is all over is to perhaps join MSF or Save the Children or something similar I am also really lucky I have two unrelated areas of expertise both are highly sought after.

good to hear you have a plan to emerge from the mire happygardening

"corruption and lack of control"
Dont underestimate the lack of control in particular in my chosen profession. This is why we're leaving in droves. I don't mind paper work and am happy to maintain it to justify my actions in fact have been very recently praised for the high standards of my documentation and that is how it should be becasue I need if I am able to defend my decisions in court 6 years down the road. But I object to having my autonomy removed from me and being told what is best for those I am responsible for (in the eyes of the law) when it so clearly isn't by some pen pusher with no actual real life experience other than that gained from reading a text book or writing a dissertation (I've got one of those as well by the way!).
End of rant; sorry!

mrz the study you quote proves nothing. Most teachers will tell you that the experiment that has been comprehensive education with its emphasis on ma teaching has failed children of ALL abilities not just the most able. In mixed ability classes nobody gets taught properly as teachers pretty much teach to the middle with crap extension work for the clever kids and dumbed down worksheets for the lower ability kids - completely unfair on everyone. And don't get me started on the brighter kids being used as pseudo teachers for the lower ability kids - big push for this a few years ago as a teaching and learning tool. Nonsense.

And please don't tell me that these things do not happen as I have seen it in every comp I have ever worked in. State education can do much better than this and it damn well should be doing - maybe then the private sector will shrink a little because parents know that they will be getting an excellent deal from the state which is what we all pay our taxes for.

rabbitstew, independents are inspected too by the ISI so if you want to set about labelling them then you can - just read their most recent report.

And happygardening I empathise with all that you say and I too worked in incredibly disadvantaged and challenging schools before going in to the private sector. It is an ongoing dilemma for me in terms of my own beliefs about state education and how good it could be but I cannot believe how different it is for teachers in the private sector and for my own sanity and self belief I am staying put. I am left to work with pupils as I see fit and my professionalism is respected. It is like taking huge lungfuls of fresh air after being locked up in a cupboard for years.