If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector...

[TheseJeansHaveShrunk]

It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

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People get so very cross at the thought of other people having political and philosophical standpoints which are different from theirs. I do wonder why.

Why is it merrily using? I chose the school because ds is dyspraxic and he could walk there and back. Plus the teachers are amazing. He has left now and is at college where there is a different mix too.

I agree seeker I don't like the whole concept of private education and so I chose a state school because of that Why does it matter what money I have?

Wordfactory - precisely the point I think. Put these families in an area with no grammars, just a couple of sink comps and no faith schools and what would they do......go private of course. Or move house to get in the 'right' catchment area - thus using their money to 'buy' the right kind of school. Hypocrisy on this issue is rife and I really wish that people would just be honest and stop kidding themselves and being judgemental those who do go private.

I missed out the word 'about'. Apologies.

I am not judgemental about those who do if I was I would have to ditch half of my mates! I always have had these vows from when I wasn't in a financial position to ever consider private anyway.By the time my ds was 11 we were in a different financial situation but I still felt the same.

noddy I am sorry I did not necessarily mean you - just I get tired of preachy people claiming that they are supporting the state system and that indie schools are to blame for all the world's ills whilst simultaneously discovering that they are actually devout Catholics or that they really NEED to move house as their dc approach 11. It's a bit annoying.

I wish there were any schools in the UK like this. I am just interested to know how any primary school (private or state) can tell if my child is more intelligent than any others at Foundation age (4 year old!). Than at any other age if SATs test are always written later than you apply for school places and decisions are made... Than private schools accept anybody that pays (one of my friends daughter was not brilliant at local state school but the private school took her since they can afford to pay for) and bursaries are based on the family's incomes not on abilities... Secondary grammars use verbal reasoning (not written!), certain secondaries (and primaries, too) give preference to pupils from certain schools (based on the "reputation" of the school)...

I think foreigners like me can spot discrepancies more just because we are used to more transparent systems...

But countrykitten - you say no state school can compete with the likes of your selective private school, so are you not being utterly hypocritical to argue that parents choosing "nice" state schools are doing the same thing that parents choosing your private school are doing???? Strikes me they are doing completely different things with their money altogether.

People admit that indies have better results and pupils improve better... Most reasons for sending children to state school was distance, money issues, etc. Everybody admits that private schools are very good (even pushy) they just disagree with the idea that "quality education is a privilege".

But you can often move child from one state school to another, around here you can anyway, we don't have problem of too few school places in school sector,or huge disparity between choices.

I had DS in private & moved him into state not least because the state was better (still completely mediocre GCSE rates by MN standards).

I know lots of folk who serially move their child from one private school to another, end up sampling several as part of their journey. Plenty of slagging off of local prep by parents who have sent their kids there. HT is alleged to be a tyrant. Just a different sort of machine on offer, maybe.

The thing with selective schools (whether private or not) is that they don't half make life easy for themselves, do they? They don't have to deal with the children with special needs, they don't have to deal with the children who have less than ideal home environments. They can just cream off the children they want and get amazing results. A friend of mine has one son in a selective prep in Cambridge and was worrying about her younger son - if he didn't get L3 at age 7, they would not take him.

I'd like to see a long-running experiment, which can never happen because it would not be ethical in anyway, in which a selective private has to accept a random standard size class full of state school kids for 6 years - no managing out, no selection - and see how well they do with that group. And I'd like to see a state school be given a class of, say, 15 academically bright children with motivated and supported parents, who would be taught in that nice small group throughout, and see how they do.

I don't think I'll be convinced of the inherent and inevitable superiority of private education until I see the outcome of this experiment. Wishful thinking, I know.

rabbitstew I am not really sure what your point is here at all. I don't like the hypocrisy that's all.

anitasmall for the third and hopefully final time - the school I teach at is FULLY SELECTIVE. Many UK independent schools are the same. The way this is done where I work is through:

SATs results
Entrance exams
A panel interview
An aptitude day
Bursaries are arranged for the very able if they get through all of the above and parents cannot afford full fees.

Pupils are not accepted on their ability to pay although there are some indies which are not selective and will do this.

I think perhaps that you need to re-educate yourself about the UK system as you are wrong about some things here.

pns - I used to think this way too but am not so sure any more. I agree that selective schools have the cream of the crop and absolutely results should be higher because of this but this is what people pay for isn't it? At selective schools you can actually teach full time rather than crowd control for some of the time and teach the rest.

anitasmall, attending private schools does not mean that said child is academically very precocious or able, just means that said child's parents can pay the fees! Most private schools are selective in only the sense that they select out those families who can afford the fees. Do not confuse these schools with the private schools which can select out both those who cannot pay the fees as well as those with children who are academically able to jump the high hurdles.

My DS1 goes to a private school which selects on ability - believe me, I know personally at least one story of a family which attempted to buy itself through the admissions process (offered more than £10 million to its fund) and was turned down. Not all private schools are the same!

wordfactory I'm just wondering what your evidence is for saying that virtually all state school students at Oxford/ Cambridge come from a handful of grammars and top comps. Please could you expand?

The other side of the story is that if private school accepts lets say a dyslexic child the parents won't be cheated (friends daughter had full A's, B's, including English and MFL). Many state school just accepts SEN children to get better OFSTED recommendations for catering wide rage of children but they can't really cater them (SEN children are asked to take long brakes when OFSTED comes or the school will support them with an extra TA for that day)...

But that's the whole point, kitten - my objection to private schools is that they don't have to do the hard parts, and yet they are held up to as so unbelievably wonderful. I think many of the differences in results would melt away if private and selective schools had to deal with the same intake that the state system does.

What I'd really like to see is a system that caters for everyone. I am not actually against selection by ability - but I think selection should be by all types of ability. That would mean building a culture of respect for skilled vocational trades instead of idolising only the academic, and creating vocational schools which would give the UK a generation of skilled and home-grown plumbers, electricians, carpenters, patissiers, chefs, gardeners, childcare workers - the list is endless. I absolutely do not believe that all children are created equal, but I do genuinely believe that everyone has at least one thing that they are good at. We need a school system which identifies those skills and then nurtures them, and does not write off as less worthwhile anyone who is not by inclination academic.

I readily confess that I am a leftie idealist, and I accept your criticism of the hypocrisy of people who find God, or use their wealth to buy into the catchment of a good school. Personally I have the confidence that I can provide enrichment for my DDs well into the A-level curriculum and probably beyond in many subjects so I would not choose that path even if I could - but I'd like to see all children have access to the kind of support that makes the most of their talents.

anitasmall you really don't know what you are talking about. Dyslexia has nothing to do with intelligence levels so it is not surprising that a child can get a raft of excellent results and still be dyslexic. I teach dyslexic pupils as well as those on the autistic spectrum and as I have said to you repeatedly we are a fully selective school.

Mom,
It is very nice to hear that there are private schools like this. Do they support any talented children from poorer background?

"Many state school just accepts SEN children to get better OFSTED recommendations for catering wide rage of children but they can't really cater them (SEN children are asked to take long brakes when OFSTED comes or the school will support them with an extra TA for that day)... "

Anita, can you give evidence for that view?

Ofsted looks at long-term data for all pupils, and looks at progress of all groups. Though I believe in the past (when long notice was given for Ofsted inspections) there were cases of disruptive (not necessarily SEN) children sent on arranged trips for the day, the data relating to those children would still be examined by the inspector. With modern minimal notice inspections, even such 'rigging of the system' to make e.g. behaviour look better than normal is less and less possible - especially as inspectors will sometimes decide to go on such trips or visit children away on trips / residential visit as part of the inspection.

anitasmall have you read ANYTHING that I have posted at all? For goodness sake!

pns - I agree with you and this would be the ideal. How we go about achieving this is a different matter but I would start by dumping Gove out in the cold.

anitasmall there are definitely some private schools where intellectual ability takes preference over everything elseincluding ability to pay or not. These area rarive handful but they are out there. St Paul's Winchester Eton to name a few are very selective especially the first two and are becoming increasingly generous with their bursaries money and status will not get you in.

anita - yes they do! . My son's school is on a serious campaign to get itself to needs blind status. Outside of that, it holds extra-curricular enrichment classes for bright state school students for at least 3 nights out of 5 (I only know about the 3 nights because I pick my son up late from swim squad 3 nights and see the classes through the window) - these are things which they sponsor in a not-obvious way , so not for show to demonstrate how civic minded they are.