If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector...

[TheseJeansHaveShrunk]

It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

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@word is it Oxford you teach at? Or Cambridge? There is no such place as Oxbridge after all. And typically, for cambridge (i have no idea what happens at oxford) you will teach at one or two colleges, if you are teaching tutorials, or you will lecture everyone who takes your course but have little actual one to one interaction with anyone except your tutees. So it's unlikely you have been exposed to more than a very small proportion of the state school students at whichever university it is you teach in. Even then I'd be amazed if they all came from a tiny handful of state schools. But even if they all did (some state schools do, like posh schools, forge links with particular colleges - my school sent 3 people to queens in the years I was there (including my friend) but there were plenty of other state school people at queens who didn't come from my school during that roughly 8 year period).

Hyperbole for effect isn't terribly helpful.

Interesting debate op.

I agree there are are good /bad state schools and indies.

I imagine those counties within grammer areas use senior private less as see it as comparable in dealing with brighter children.

Where I live secondry education within state is poor and limited so the independent section does very well.

Also theirs paying for state education through postcode catchment so if you paid over odds to live in that street and school seems good and gets ok results then of course you least try your child in state 1st.

Outside of wales/parts scotland there are no biligual state schools which is shame as as being rather rubbish at modern languages myself and world being global I would chose bilingual state school if there was one on offer.

I guess private school are not bound by national currciculum or sats. Many seniors have opted out of gcses and do i gsces or international bac also many offer exteneded hours working parets, better sports -truly competative unlike state sports day where everyones a winner.

The grounds and extra curricular activities at some independants here are lovley.

But its horses for courses depends on child.

I know people who moved private to state.
I know people who moved schools as unhappy. I moved state to state same la but very different schools.

Mostly thought peope, un happy with state opt out state as assume all schools the same they not and head for nearest prep.

Also guess smaller classes make extra school trips more possible.
My dd infants has only ever had 1 school trip a year since starting.

The further I get from primary the more I start to suspect that what is taught at that stage is actually far less important than how it is taught. I have had experience of the UK system and also a continental system. I dont think that it matters whether you learn to read and write at the age of 5 or the age of 8.

Languages benefit from being introduced early - I remember reading somewhere that if you learn your first second language by the time you are around 6 then your brain remains receptive to new languages.

Maths, sciences etc teaching needs to be good enough for the syllabus being taught. Teachers need to be capable of answering questions around the syllabus. However IMO that is good enough for the vast, vast majority of primary school pupils. Does it matter that a teacher has a C grade GCSE in maths if they are confidant and enthusiastic teaching at the lower level?

In my opinion the important thing is for pupils to not have been turned off school during the primary years. Gaps in knowledge are quickly and easily filled. Gaps in motivation are far harder to resolve.

Happy gardening they did used to have a scheme to help middle classes get into private school government funded cant remember its name-assisted places grant, it was scrapped in 97 when blair came in s my ex and few of his freinds wet to a independent boy school where they all did well went to top unis his parents paid reduced fees-it wasent a bursary it was paid by the government.

Like you say for rich its not given 2nd thourght.

But squeezed middle classes its huge outlay and even harder if have more than 1child. I have 3 and know could not afford them all and could send 1 at a push but that would seem unfair that they didnent get equal education.

Education is very political.

governers are comprised of few groups

teachers
local community
church

I know a few but question what influence they hold in terms of quality of education .I say that as know a few frustrated governers.

School budegts vary on la and school to school.
My las one of worst funded as classed as semi rural but there are some deprived parts that could do with more funding .

Guardian journos always bang on about state and labour mps many of the went private and send their kids private.Many of them say London have no choice .

I think choice and open markets a goiod thing providing all areas have equal choice which they dont.

My DS on moving to his Prep was delighted to find the obligatory numerousy and literacy hour no longer existed and it was replaced with history or geography (as he said at the time still writing punctuation sentence contruction reading etc) French or Latin biology or chemistry that maths took place in the afternoon and PE in the morning and afternoon and sport 5 afternoons a week and the maybe English afterwards. School became less of a repetitive drudge.
It become interesting maths moved on if you'd got it on Monday you moved on for the next lesson unlike his primary where he was still doing the same thing on Friday. His view on education changed. Maybe gaps can be made up although all should be properly taught at least 1 MFL reception but a love and passion for life and learning just because its there needs to be kindled when children are young not stifled in an over prescribed dumbed down environment found in many of our primary schools and secondary schools both state and independent.

mam The solution is not reinstate the subsidised places although of course it would be cheaper but to address the reasons why MC parents send their children to independent day schools.

rabbitstew I mentioned that once and do not 'keep on' mentioning it. I suspect that you don't know a great deal about teaching and have an objection to private education on idealogical grounds which is, of course, your choice entirely. As I did say previously, I held similar opinions but 16 years teaching in the state sector knocked my faith in governments and the way that our state schools are kicked about like footballs to score cheap political points changed how I felt.

New Labour (sadly voted in by me and people like me) did a great deal of harm to the concept of achievement and standards fell as GCSE pass rates went up. We are dealing with the consequences of this now as the current government showed by clumsily and unfairly wading in and changing mark bands for GCSE English this year - it needed to be done but not like that.

Naming, I totally agree about the importance of primary being more about learning to love learning than about the learning itself. And about being part of a community, I think.

I also agree that schools have been kicked around like footballs - to a point - but I still support state schools. The one I have experience of (primary and, to be fair, probably not representative of the majority) deserves all the support it gets and does its best to steer its own course through the storms of changing governments.

I am a parent governor, and yes, we do have some influence and input on all areas - we work as a team with the SLT: they have influence and input on all areas, so do we.

Why do MC parents send their children to independent day schools? First and foremost, they feel they have a say (illusion or not) in their child's education. Parents feel they have some semblance of control over how their child is taught instead of being part of a machine. If a private school does not meet parents' expectations, the parent has a choice to remove said child and enrol him/her in another. If enough parents make a stink, the admin/bean counters must listen and make some changes. Market forces and all...

Loads of middle class parents don't send their children to independent day schools, you know!

I do sometimes get the feeling that mumsnetters think that a much higher %age of children go to private schools than actually do.

countrykitten - I may use private education for my children from the age of 11 onwards. And I know more about education than you appear to think.

Happy,

The reasons why some MC parents send their children to independent day schools, though, are not necessarily education related and can therefore not be addressed through looking at schools alone.

For some, it is about 'peer group' (not academic peer group, but 'social class' peer group). That cannot be addressed through schools alone.

Most middle class parents couldn't afford private education even if they wanted it.

Absolutely, wordfactory.

In the UK schools are NOT fully selective. In Europe fully selective means that they consider end of the year marks (here you could use SATs tests) if more pupils have the same results, they have to take additional tests. SEN is not considered, neither county, LEA, distance form school...

My sons friends are mainly MC aand were all state school educated I think maybe some could have afforded private looking at their lifestyles but to buy a house near this particular school it is probably that which takes all teh £. I only have one ds so could have comfortably afforded it but I wanted the local thing

Yes, but the question is why the ones who do send them do. Just because one can, does not mean that one does, hence the starting of the thread.

anitasmall the school I teach at is fully selective.

And it's in the UK.

Most of them are anti private education. As am I

anitasmall, what a strange remark. Are you talking about all schools or state? If all, I can guarantee you that there are many selective private which are selective on your criteria (bar SATs).

Many middle class parents don't use private schools because they are politically and philosophically opposed to them.

Noddy- I thought one of the great virtues of state school was the mix of children from all backgrounds. How has your DS ended up mixing mainly with other rich children?

All these ideological giants ... Merrily using grammar schools, faith schools and outstanding comps in middle class areas. They must be so proud of their political largesse.

He hasn't I am just commenting on the ones that are.They are all different at his particular school. I was referring to those who could afford private.