Middle class access to grammars via tutorproof 11+ part 2

[boschy]

May I do this? only there were some contrasting views at the end of the last thread which I found interesting.

One was mine (sorry!): "I think fear actually drives a lot of those parents who are desperate to get their child into GS, so they can be 'protected' from these gangs of feral teenagers who apparently run rampage through every non-selective school in the country.

Because clearly if you are not 11+ material you are a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who likes nothing better than beating up a geek before breakfast and then going to score behind the bike shed before chucking a chair at the maths teacher and making the lives of the nice but dim kids a misery."

And one was from gazzalw: "If you had the choice would you opt for a grammar school or a comprehensive that has gangs?"

Soooo, do people really think that all comprehensives have vicious gangs, and all GS children are angels? Or that only those of academic ability adequate enough to get them through the 11+ should not have to face behavioural disruption of any kind? If you are borderline, or struggling but still work hard, should you just have to put up with disruption because let's face it you're not academic?

PS, re the knuckle dragging Neanderthals I mention above, should have said - "and that's only the girls"

All this top set stuff depends a lot on the size of the school and on its intake. If it's a big comprehensive school with a good reputation and a leafy catchment area with ten sets per year, then the top set and the expectations for its members are going to be very high. Probably about the same as the top set in a small grammar which takes 30% of the ability which has 3 sets per year.

Tantrum and LaQueen, you still aren't getting it.

No one is saying the grammar = the comp.

We are saying:
Top set of a good comp=the grammar.

If you compare these results they will be the same, because YOU ARE COMPARING CHILDREN OF THE SAME INTELLECTUAL ABILITY.

So is that in terms of results? I don't buy that but obviously there's no statistical evidence to prove or disprove so we will have to agree to disagree.
GS offer the oppourtunities that comps do not. The environment is far removed from the local comp.
And IME the expectation for students achievements are vastly different.

The results from one of my local comps.
www.school-portal.co.uk/GroupDownloadFile.asp?GroupId=25437&ResourceId=4191773

Another comp at the other end of the county
(the one that lady in the Daily Mail who lost her house refused to send her kids to)
www.bohunt.hants.sch.uk/Downloads/Performance%20Reports/Exam%20Results%202012.pdf

I am interested in whether children will achieve the same results, I can say hand on heart that the able children I teach get as good an education, if not better, from me as a teacher in a comp as they would have got when I worked at the grammar.

Tbh I do wonder why in some cases parents choose a grammar when there is a perfectly good compreheive. That is why most of my children are at a comprehensive and if I could go back and redo some things differently my son would also be at the comprehensive.

LaQueen
How many comps around the country have you actually spent time in?
100?
200?
300?
as that is what DH has done and you are talking utter carp

Laqueen that is the point that people have been trying to make, not all comprehensive and not all grammars are the same. There are some poor grammars and some outstanding comprehensives and in the real sense rather than the OFSTED sense.

which one?
shall I get you more?
Hampshire has many like it, as do other counties
DO NOT judge all schools unless you have worked in many.

i live in a grammar school area.
the top set of comp does not equal grammar. Majority of grammar school pupils were in top 15% of local primaries. That said I know that going to grammar is not for everyone, regardless of ability. One of my DS goes to comp, doing vvery well and predicted 10 good GSCe's. Her sister goes to grammar, she is more academic and can cope with the volume of work and "pressure".

To be fair to Lequeen a dozen schools is more than most teachers! I can think of very few teachers who have worked at that many schools, even those about to retire. I cannot even name a dozen local schools!

Not as good as our GS either.
And it isn't comparable.
There's a reason so many parents try to get their children into GS.

But talkin's school is taking in the whole spectrum of abilities. I am not very impressed by a grammar school getting 100% A* to C.

But there are also valid reasons why lots of parents realise the the grammar school may not be the best option, regardless of their child's abilty . I made a huge mistake putting my very bright son in a grammar, a mistake I have t live with

It's not impressive for a grammar to get 100 A*-C
It's normal, it's expected, anything less is unacceptable.
That's the point.
That is the norm at GS. That's why there is such competition for GS places.

LaQueen
but neither of those schools are selective AT ALL
they have SEN kids and thick as two short planks kids - which NO GS will tolerate.
So there is no way that they would get the same results as a comp - because they take the kids who would not even be entered for the 11+
and still get those results with all their kids.

kilmuir
if you live in a grammar school area, you do not have 'comps' you have secondary moderns.