Middle class access to grammars via tutorproof 11+ part 2

[boschy]

May I do this? only there were some contrasting views at the end of the last thread which I found interesting.

One was mine (sorry!): "I think fear actually drives a lot of those parents who are desperate to get their child into GS, so they can be 'protected' from these gangs of feral teenagers who apparently run rampage through every non-selective school in the country.

Because clearly if you are not 11+ material you are a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who likes nothing better than beating up a geek before breakfast and then going to score behind the bike shed before chucking a chair at the maths teacher and making the lives of the nice but dim kids a misery."

And one was from gazzalw: "If you had the choice would you opt for a grammar school or a comprehensive that has gangs?"

Soooo, do people really think that all comprehensives have vicious gangs, and all GS children are angels? Or that only those of academic ability adequate enough to get them through the 11+ should not have to face behavioural disruption of any kind? If you are borderline, or struggling but still work hard, should you just have to put up with disruption because let's face it you're not academic?

PS, re the knuckle dragging Neanderthals I mention above, should have said - "and that's only the girls"

(I believe, by the way, that mrz's school is somewhat similar to mine, though in a different part of the country entirely)

I know many, many children whose parents don't speak the language of the school. Fortunately nowadays there is great technology to help children with reading, and to help children learn to read in a language that is not that of their parents. Of course, it is never as good as being heard by a parent, but if an illiterate or EAL parent sits with a child using the technology, it is almost as effective.

Bonsoir, would it be your idea that the purchase / access to such technology is funded by the school? The state?

depressingly I have to agree with teacherwith2kids
a clear marker of socio-economic deprivation is kids arriving in year R who have never been cared for outside the family unit. Statistically they also often have VERY poor language skills and a fair percentage start school still in nappies

those children would not have a cats chance in hell of passing an 11+
hence why comps - and the separation of parent and child in ability levels
is so UTTERLY essential.
because once in the school they can be RG streamed even if the parents have no other coherent input.

The problems that Travellers have accessing education are specific and well-documented. Their issues need (and receive) particular policies but cannot possibly be used as anecdotal evidence of widespread difficulties encountered by the many.

Thanks Talkin! I know that we are not unique - or even very unusual - in our experience but I was begnning to wnder if all I knew from colleagues and friends was an illusion!

The technology has been developed by private firms but would cost very little indeed to deliver over the internet.

Travellers are also (frankly) a statistical irrelevance.

Round here is utterly Anglo Saxon, ex labouring stock.
No language or race issues, just self imposed isolation.
Without comps, their kids would sink even lower.
WITH comps, their kids have a chance to fly.

Would you deny them that?

Bonsoir,

But the point I am making remains the same - that it is the duty of the education system to identify and eradicate as far as possible the barriers that prevent children reaching their full potential. If I have, as a teacher, two equally 'intellident' children in my class, and I choose to accept that one will not reach their full potential simply because they have a different type of family from the other child, then I am failing as a professional. I might not succeed in totally outweighing the disadvantage, but that should never be for want of trying.

@talkin - We might be neighbours because we too have comprehensives and we too are highly ranked. It could be because of the comp system OR it could be because we are a relatively affluent area :-)

Bonsoir, are you assuming though that these parents have access to the Internet at home? Or that they could go into schools to use it?

I teach in a similar area to T2K but at secondary level. We are dealing with the same sort of kids- often their parents have absolutely no input after age 11 (not sure what it's like before that) - no show at parents evening, unsupportive if kids get a detention, won't turn up to concerts, sports matches etc. I had one girl in yr13 last year who was criticised by her family for still being at school when she was as old as she was. She got A*AC in her A Levels, but did not apply to university, despite as much encouragement as we could give her- not what "people like her" do (her words).

Talkin,

Again, yes, I absolutely recignise what you are saying. My point is NOT solely about Travellers, otherwise i would have stated that earlier. It is about entrenched disadvantage from whatever source, which we as teachers have a responsibility to address as far as humanly possible.

Bonsoir
the poor kids in my area have lived here for 400 years.
The immigrants are doing just fine thankyou, because their parents strive (both black, brown and white).
The indigenous poor are the most intractable.
They are white, English, unskilled, 3rd generation unemployed, blah blah blah
WHAT would you do with them?

Well, it's a fact that year on year in the last 5 years or so, the level of school readiness of children joining my dss' school (which is more sought after now than it was then, not less) has gone down significantly. Far higher proportion of speech and language delays in native speakers than used to be the case, far higher proportion of children unable to count when they start, far higher proportion of children not reliably potty trained... basically, far more ground to be covered in Reception year than used to be the case. Is there something in the water, is pre-school provision getting worse and worse - or are parents not doing as good a job of preparing children for school as they used to, despite the fact there is more effort being made to inform them of what is expected? Are reasonably well educated mothers who used to stay at home for the first few years of their children's lives interacting with their children all day and potty training them reliably, but who are now working full time to earn a reasonable income for the family, relying on inferior standards of care in nurseries and pre-schools, rather than doing it themselves (she said, totally provocatively and totally politically incorrectly, to see what reaction she would get... )?

(I am kicking myself here for even introducing the Traveller point, as it isn't germane to the discussion. I just feel my hackles rise when people make such dismissive generalised statements about 'children don't live like that nowadays' ... Whether there are children who live exactly as my grandfather did nowadays is not really the point. The point is that there are many, many children who have barriers - family, social, cultural, financial - to them reaching their full potential educationally UNLESS schools do their very, very best to address them.

To say that schools CANNOT address them, it is all up to the parents is a) untrue and b) suggests that the status quo is 'as good as it will get', which is frankly depressing.)

TalkinPeace - what you do is multi-faceted but teachers should not feel that they are "failing as professionals" if they cannot compensate for the difference in family support that some children are facing versus others. That is placing intolerable strain on the teaching profession and is a highly idealistic and unrealistic position.

Ah, Bonsoir, I am not failing if I fail to achieve it - but to fail to try, as you are suggesting, and to throw all responsibility onto the parents whatever their capability, WOULD be failing as a professional.

CMs and nurseries tend to INCREASE numeracy and literacy levels - if nothing else than to relieve their own boredom.

rabbit
if you are a governor at school (and frankly every MN poster should do at least one 4 years stint)
you'll know the %age that have been cared for outside the 'home' before school
if not, find out before commenting further.

Rabbit,

Our (anecdotal) experience is that increased difficulties on starting receptuon are correlated with NOT attending any setting outside the home before starting school, which would not support your thesis....

Bonsoir
you are in France : which deports travellers rather than educate them.
and the record for contrast between the 6th and the banlieues would get ANY English politician deselected

so please, before slagging off the English system any more
how would YOU cope with what we have round here : indigenous whites with no language problem, but no history of working since the 1960's?

Bonsoir - it's a position the government appears to be taking, though - that teachers should do more and more and more to compensate for parental inadequacies. More and more after school hours activities required on school premises, run from budgets too small to accommodate this unless teachers do it, more and more pressure for homework clubs and breakfast clubs, more and more pressure to make school holidays shorter and school days longer, more and more pressure to make parents evenings fit in with parents who work long hours (thus requiring teachers to work longer and longer hours to suit parents who haven't got the time to spend with their children, so need someone else providing them with wholesome activities...).

I have the figures - these ARE children who have attended pre-schools.

So don't accuse me of not knowing about my children's school...

I've just looked again at this thread again and want to agree with teacherwith2kids. I too hate the disdainful perspective that 'children don't live like that nowadays', although there is some truth in the fact that some children have it harder than previous generations.

My grandfather lived in a council house, with low rent and his father always had low paid but regular employment. His mother worked part time in a factory. They had well darned clothes but enough to eat. This was the poverty stricken East End of London at the turn of the century.

Some children in my dc's don't have anything resembling a stable home and don't have any prospect of getting one. Their parents find it incredibly hard to find work due to the economic situation and prejudice against the travelling communities. Many of the women go through bins to find things to use and sell. Many of the children don't have enough to eat (and aren't entitled to FSM as their parents are Bulgarian etc and not eligible for benefits), don't have warm clothing for winter and it's difficult to see how their life opportunities are any better than my grandfather's.

They may be a statistical irrelevance for some, but they account for over 10% of my dc's school, so matter to many of us.

teacherwith2kids - parents and teachers are not the only agents.