Middle class access to grammars via tutorproof 11+ part 2

[boschy]

May I do this? only there were some contrasting views at the end of the last thread which I found interesting.

One was mine (sorry!): "I think fear actually drives a lot of those parents who are desperate to get their child into GS, so they can be 'protected' from these gangs of feral teenagers who apparently run rampage through every non-selective school in the country.

Because clearly if you are not 11+ material you are a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who likes nothing better than beating up a geek before breakfast and then going to score behind the bike shed before chucking a chair at the maths teacher and making the lives of the nice but dim kids a misery."

And one was from gazzalw: "If you had the choice would you opt for a grammar school or a comprehensive that has gangs?"

Soooo, do people really think that all comprehensives have vicious gangs, and all GS children are angels? Or that only those of academic ability adequate enough to get them through the 11+ should not have to face behavioural disruption of any kind? If you are borderline, or struggling but still work hard, should you just have to put up with disruption because let's face it you're not academic?

PS, re the knuckle dragging Neanderthals I mention above, should have said - "and that's only the girls"

seeker what did dd2 het in year 6sats? 4 or higher.

as sometimes sats dont translate into 11+
they testing diffrent things

sats what they learnt
11+suppost to be more about potential.

what are you doing to ensure now hes in secondry modern hate taht term that teachers are differentiating his work and challenging hin?
are you doing extra at home fill the gap?

as assume you know exactly what grammer curriculum syllabus ofers and when as older dd goes.
can you not use that knowledge and plug the gaps.

Like I asked before we know you against it

but what you actually doing are you walking the talk?
lobbying mp, egtting together with other parents and campaigning?

if he had got you agree its still unfair.

do you wonder if both dds might at end of day get similar gcse/alevel results anyway.

I don't quite understand. The 11+ process "worked" for my dd- in that it selected yet another middle class child from an educated, book filled, supportive home. If that's what you mean by working. It didn't "work" for my ds. In some ways you could say it didn't "work" twice. It didn't select him on the grounds of middle class bookishness or in terms of IQ!

As for your comment about the difference between hitting the mark and getting an education, I get it.

At DS's school the kids prep for the lessons the night before so classroom time is spent discussing the subject as opposed to the state school model where the teacher stands in front of the class and teach. So although he will hopefully get As at the end he will have probably received a 'better education' than the Sec Mod kid who also get As.

But an A is an A to most people/employers so if I was the parent of the SM kid I certainly wouldn't be spending too much time thinking about the difference.

SATS are nothing to do with anything.

Its simple, if you pass the 11 plus you are in.

Could it be that he simply wasn't GS material?

seeker what did dd2 het in year 6sats? 4 or higher.
it's a he, actually! He got 556
as sometimes sats dont translate into 11+
they testing diffrent things

sats what they learnt
11+suppost to be more about potential.

what are you doing to ensure now hes in secondry modern hate taht term that teachers are differentiating his work and challenging hin?
are you doing extra at home fill the gap?
Absolutely. The biggest gaps so far have been in the cultural side of things- there is very little music or drama at the high school, so we're finding other outlets for that side of him

as assume you know exactly what grammer curriculum syllabus ofers and when as older dd goes.
can you not use that knowledge and plug the gaps.
Yes- we can and will

Like I asked before we know you against it

but what you actually doing are you walking the talk?
lobbying mp, egtting together with other parents and campaigning?
I am very active in local politics. In fact, I am amazed I haven't outed myself. Maybe I have and people are being discreet!

if he had got you agree its still unfair.

yes

do you wonder if both dds might at end of day get similar gcse/alevel results anyway.

Yes, I am sure they will. But as I said, there's more to education than results.

"But an A is an A to most people/employers so if I was the parent of the SM kid I certainly wouldn't be spending too much time thinking about the difference."

Wouldn't you? What a very strange attitude. Or are you saying that's how imagine all high school parents think?

"Could it be that he simply wasn't GS material?"

Yes, it's possible. But by all objective and subjective measures he is.

Well, I obviously can't imagine what a OMG. SM? My DC is destined for a life of cleaning the toilets parent might think.

Allow me to pass over a tissue for your parent goggles.

Once again, I don't know what you mean.

... by ALL objective measures? What, you mean the 11+ that he failed?

KS level 4 is the national average so by that 'objective' measure your DS is only average.

It is not my intention to be mean to your DCs. It's just that you hold up your DS as an example of how unfair the system is. If it is then it certainly wasn't 'unfair' to your DD who DID get selected.

APMF it's really very simple. More children can benefit from grammar school places than there are places available (it's a bit like oxbridge in that respect), so a test (the 11+) is devised to choose who to accept and who not to.

This test is supposed to select those with the most potential (not the most prior achievement), but the test is a rather blunt instrument - the very most able are more likely to pass than the not so bright but there are variations on the day. Also, the disadvantaged are less likely to pass, probably due to cultural bias in the test as well as lack of tutoring (which isn't supposed to help, but in fact does to an extent). So, in general, while you don't get people passing who can't benefit from a grammar education you get many failing who can, and in a number of cases some of those that fail will in fact be brighter than some of those who pass.

Seeker has said (many times) her ds has always seemed very able, more so than her dd, I think we need to trust her that this is indeed the case - mothers are usually right. Additionally his SATs results (which measure achievement, so obviously not the same thing but correlated) bear this out as does the fact that his headmaster supported his appeal.

Seeker has been quite consistent in her views and position on this. So lets just leave it be.

On the day, he wasn't grammar material (ie he didn't pass the test), but it seems abundantly clear that he could benefit from a grammar education.

And once again, I thought that I was being perfectly clear.

Parents often look at their children through parent goggles. Their child is clearly the most talented child in the play. Their DD have the looks to be a model or the talent to be a pop star etc etc.

I was merely offering you a tissue for those metaphorical 'goggles'.

I think making personal comments about seekers children, implying that they are not grammar school material etc is not really relevant is it?
any child can have an off day in a test situation

And to be fair you can be against the ethos of the grammar system whilst still having children at a GS

I am kind of losing the will to live with this one. What someone up thread (tantrums I think?) about the attitude her DS receives is quite disgusting, poor boy.

But the whole point is that a fully comprehensive system allows all students to be educated on the same site, in different settings for different subjects, so that everyone has ACCESS to the best whether they reach that point at 11, 13 or 16.

The objective measures to which I refer are SATs and CATs. I think it unlikely that even the most rose tinted parent goggles could actually change those scores.

And APMF you've mis-read Seeker's post. Her DS got 556 in his SATS. It was her DD (who is at GS) who got (a?) 4

and it is not an indicator that the GS is "not as academic" because a child with a level 4 got in

Im quite sure she isnt the only one.

Well to try and get back on topic. There is no political will to either significantly expand or close the remaining grammar schools, so what's needed is to improve what we've got.

So, to improve comprehensives where they exist and to improve secondary moderns and grammar schools where they exist.

I suggested perhaps a quota for disadvantaged children at grammar schools - would this be a good or an acceptable thing?

For non-selective schools, the report I linked to earlier said that there is a huge variability in the percentage of high achieving children at these(it varies between 1% and 98% allegedly). Which rather suggests that at the extremes so called comprehensives are anything but. What, if anything, can or should be done about this?

gelo - Seeker's historical position on the issues is irrelevant as far as this conversation is concerned. My position on 11+, GS/indie has equally been consistent over the years.

If I were to make contradictory statements in favour of 11+ etc I don't expect to use my consistent position as a defence.

Show me the statements I have made which you think are contradictory and I'll attempt to explain them to you.

Unlike you, if I make a mistake or say something fatuous, I attempt to correct and explain. I don't just move on and pretend I didn't say them.

gelo what exactly do you mean by disadvantaged? what criteria would be applied to determine who was eligible?

The usual starting point for identifying disadvantage is FSM. Sadly, I think gelo's proposal would just lead to a new area of work for accountants.......

@marni - seeker said her GS DD was KS level 4 maths in Year 7. She then said her SM DS in Year 7 was at the same level. The inference is that DS is also at level 4.

If both DCs are both at the same KS level in Year 7 then why is seeker spending so much time going on about what a shitty deal DS is getting at his SM? FFS he is at the same KS level as his GS sister at that point in time.