Middle class access to grammars via tutorproof 11+ part 2

[boschy]

May I do this? only there were some contrasting views at the end of the last thread which I found interesting.

One was mine (sorry!): "I think fear actually drives a lot of those parents who are desperate to get their child into GS, so they can be 'protected' from these gangs of feral teenagers who apparently run rampage through every non-selective school in the country.

Because clearly if you are not 11+ material you are a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who likes nothing better than beating up a geek before breakfast and then going to score behind the bike shed before chucking a chair at the maths teacher and making the lives of the nice but dim kids a misery."

And one was from gazzalw: "If you had the choice would you opt for a grammar school or a comprehensive that has gangs?"

Soooo, do people really think that all comprehensives have vicious gangs, and all GS children are angels? Or that only those of academic ability adequate enough to get them through the 11+ should not have to face behavioural disruption of any kind? If you are borderline, or struggling but still work hard, should you just have to put up with disruption because let's face it you're not academic?

PS, re the knuckle dragging Neanderthals I mention above, should have said - "and that's only the girls"

"That is normal" - but suddenly it is beyond them in a Secondary Modern? Absolutely and wholly outside their ability?

TOSN - You should count the number of times you used the words 'failed' or 'failure'.

Its like a Woody Allen movie. You know, where he keeps going on about people being anti semetic when in fact he is the only one talking about it.

By the way, if you are going to accuse me of wheeling out straw MNetters it kind of undercuts your quip if you then start going on about people being made to feel like failures.

Oh ARisbottle I am so sorry about your situation, God that's terrible. And you are so nice as well. Shouldn't you be in bed?

I can assure you I don't have low expectations of teachers - I think they can do all this and more. I think low expectations of teachers are a Bad Thing.

I am in bed now, albeit working in bed whilst DH shakes his head at me.

I have worked in a school that had low expectations and it spreads like cancer, once that attitude gets a grip is is difficult to turn it round.

Arisbottle I am so sorry too, and also think you should be in bed - unless displacement activity is helpful? would like to send you a hug, but only if you want one, and even then it would be gentle and respectful.

Through being a secondary gov I have come to know quite a few teachers quite well, and I do truly believe that they are totally commited to helping their students get the best results they can. I also think - maybe its just our non-leafy SM - that the expectations of them are very very high.

Arsbottle, so sorry to hear that.

I do agree with you. My DDs were constantly being pushed, given targets, told to think about how they could improve and what to aim for. It was never bloody ending! But it worked.

I hope you've got a hot water bottle and I hope you aren't goign to school tomorrow.

"have worked in a school that had low expectations and it spreads like cancer, once that attitude gets a grip is is difficult to turn it round."

I don't want to keep you up but at some point it would be good to hear your views on how to instil higher expectations in Sec Mod pupil.s

Arissbottle, I'm sorry about your miscarriage, I hadn't realised that was why you are off sick.

I suppose get my hippy 'let's all hold hands attitude' from my comp education, working in factories and as a hospital cleaner whilst at medical school. Actually there were plenty of comp educated people in my medical class, but in those days people still got full grants and housing benefit.

I have every confidence that my dcs will achieve their potential at a comp, and would hate to live in a grammar area.

I am in bed, have been in bed all evening , I can't just sit here and do nothing. I also am behind with my work and don't want to have to worry about that as well as losing our baby.

They are talking about this very topic in "This Week" now , very interesting

Aris, so sorry :(

Thankyou, it is sad but I am very lucky . I have four wonderful children of my own, even the ones at comprehensives and a fantastic stepson. We may try again although this may be natures way of saying you are an old gimmer.

Aris take care of yourself, and I hope you can get some sleep tonight.

Actually, our SM is really very leafy indeed - not in the desirable suburban type way, but a v rural area, which brings a whole different lot of problems and expectations...

I'll bet I outgimmer you any day. Are you predecimilisation?

Decimalisation happened while I was in the crib! Definite gimmer status!

Here's a more recent study. It's Sutton Trust, so inevitably favours grammars, but seems to think in maths at least, comps are not serving the highly able very well.

I am old enough to have been given pocket money in LSD. In it's old rather than new meaning.

I am happy to use my children as laboratory animals in this matter, so long as they are not used as sticks to beat me with. So far, my high school son is working at the same or higher levels as his grammar school sister was in year 7.

Adding fuel to the grammar school fire, DS is now in Year 7 and the expectations of what's expected of them in terms of work, particularly in maths, bears no relations to what they left behind at primary school. Of course being an old dinosaur and DS being our eldest I have no idea of levels at secondary schools but he seems to be doing stuff in maths and English that we didn't do (and remember I went to a grammar school too) until Year 9. There is no doubt that they are being well and truly stretched

"So far, my high school son is working at the same or higher levels as his grammar school sister was in year 7."

That's great. So no problem.

Well there is a problem? Why have some DCs been segregated off and the rest lumped together if they are quite capable of the same work and can actually perform better? It doesn't make any sort of sense.
I also think that it is patronising to tell DCs they haven't failed when they took an exam for a place in a grammar school and they know they failed or they would have the place! You can dress it up how you like but they failed!

How are you doing Arisbottle. Hope you got some sleep and have a good day.

Is Seeker's experience representative, do you think?

It seems a question of patting them on the head and saying 'there, there dear, you just were not suited to that sort of education and you are better off in a secondary modern' - it then doesn't make any sense if in the next breath they get 'but it is OK because you are working at the same levels'!

There's no problem as long as comps or SM schools provide a good standard of expectation and education for all children.
There is not one such school where I live. Literally none.
The reason parents are breaking their necks to try and get their DCs into GS is that the level of education elsewhere is mostly sub standard.

With the exception of one highly oversubscribed school and one catholic school the education provided to not only the brightest children, but the all the children is poor.
The teachers expectation for the most part is that the students will hopefully scrape a few decent GCSE results. That's it.
There are discipline problems, there are many things which make it a world apart from the GS

Very representative I would imagine- if you remove the top 23% you can be sure that at the very least another 10% are just as capable.

Your comment about "patronising" again speaks to low expectations. Why should teachers and parents collude in "giving up"? It's not how it works in other countries, we're told. If state/comp/high school education was good enough there would be no issue.

Another story on the news this morning about the "personal messages" for universities disadvantaging state school students, whose letters are littered with errors and poor spelling and punctuation. This is not the fault of the private schools, who have taught good spelling and punctuation and how to write a letter. It's the fault of the state schools which have failed to do so -and failed at the most basic level, primary.

It's not surprising that parents will tutor their child and chose the most (or most regarded) rigorous type of education when they see this happening.

But it's not the fault of the grammar or the private school - it's the fault of the state primary.