Elocution lessons for our American daughter?

[VintageRainBoots]

Our five year old daughter will soon start school in the UK. She was born in US, has only lived in the US, and has so far been educated in the US. As a result, she speaks with an American accent.

My concern is that there are a few sounds that she still needs to work on, and moving to a different country with different speech patterns may complicate things for her. For example, she cannot pronounce the "r", as in "star" or "very." Could elocution lessons in the UK help her pronounce words the American way? That is, can a British speech therapist help her learn to say the American "star" or will she be taught the British version (which sounds a lot like "stah" to our uncivilized American ears)?

In addition, she's only recently mastered the "th" sound (before, she was approximated "th" with a "d" so that "them" was pronounced "dem"). However, I hear a lot of folks around town (and more often in London) pronouncing "th" with an "f" or "v" rather than the American "th". We spent a fair amount of time helping her with her "th" sounds; I would hate to see all that work amount to naught if she's in a class with students who use "v" or "f" instead.

So, will elocution lessons help her?

Along those same lines, does anyone have a recommendation for a speech therapist or elocution coach near Guildford?

What do Americans mean by shag? Is it er impolite, or is it just tobacco, or shag pile carpet?

OP - I have skimmed through and read bits and pieces of this thread and I don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

If you say out loud many of the things you are writing, you will appear unbelievably rude here.

Does it really not occur to you that you have just slated (wriiten off, despised) our language and the way it is pronounced, announced that it is not an acceptable way of talking for you daughter, and then proceeded to defend every American mispronounciation as valid and correct!! Take off your rose tinted spectacles OP!

Really you need to think a lot about your cultural adaptation. There is a set of books called 'Culture Shock country name' There must be one for Uk, it may be called Culture Shock Uk or it may be called Culture Shock England, find it, read it and learn from it!

For what it is worth, I spend a lot of time teaching my children to say things properly, reminding them that it is butter not bu'er etc. Not everyone in UK says aint (actually my ds latest one is ent, an abbreviation of aint, which I insist I can't possibly understand, so he grumbles and corrects himself.) Some of us ar eable to hold an actual conversation in correct English (although not correct American)

Children copy their 'best behaviour' way of speaking form their parents, and parents are their primary language teachers. My girls have never said f or v instead of th, but my ds has said f from when he started talking, and he was surrounded by people who all said th (not in uk at the time), we have battled to get him to use th.
But at school they will copy what the others say, and speak as they do. It is fine they are learning that language varies according to circumstance.

Just wait til she starts learning to write
Mummy, color, use of prepositions, not allowed to use gonna, no curly cursive script - tis a minefield!!!
If you want her to be 100% American, don't come and live in the UK. She will change, and when you return to US she will change again. You are giving her the opportunity to be an international citizen.

Where I come from in the US we say 'dd' for 'tt'

Oh but wait I have one of those horrible new york accents you, quote, don't like to hear

Let me introduce you to another classic MN saying: do you mean to be so rude?

I'd say it in New Yorkish but I imagine it would make your head explode.

sorry loads of mistakes, can't type to save my life.

and obviously in that last bit it should say colour, not color
time for bed I think!

actually - good point dreaming, she has managed to be rude about all English English speakers, and most American English speakers too.

Well done OP! (sorry, that was a bit of English irony, not particulary good, but thought I would break you in gently)

Innercon'inennul = intercontinental. The Ts are swallowed whole by the Ns.

'WimbleTon' is how one puts a T in Wimbledon. I lost count of the number of times I heard newsreaders announce the tennis scores from Wimbleton.

I know what you are saying about the TT sound vs the DD sound in American English, but in British English the TT is the same sound as in Time, TickTock, etc., and British ears don't distinguish between the TT and DD sounds, which are very close together. You can hear British actors getting it wrong on BBC series when an American character is being badly portrayed.

Vintage -- I disagree that a southern accent can be a drawback to a job seeker. Used correctly it can be a distinct advantage. If it has ever been a hindrance to you, you've been doing something wrong with it, like pairing it with terrible grammar and not enough teeth. Good grammar, nice teeth, no straw in the corner of your mouth and a southern accent will take you a long way.

'If we moved anywhere in the US, I would insist that she pronounce all words the standard (generic) American way, regardless of where we lived.'
I am wincing here -- how would you set about doing this?

If you are serious, please go and talk your issues through with someone.

I think the best point in this debate was made by someone way up the thread:

"However, its their voice and not mine so I have to let them get on with it."

My father had elocution lessons, and came from a very posh family - his father was an Earl, he was brought up by nannies and governesses. And then he married a doctor's daughter - gasp! and his children went to a local state school - gasp! And we were told to say 'toilet' instead of 'lavatory' or 'loo', and 'pardon?' instead of 'what?'. And we said 'chine' instead of 'chayne' for chain etc. - just like on My Fair Lady

But when we moved from non-leafy Surrey to Herefordshire, everyone thought we had very, very posh accents! Now people I hardly know recognise my voice on the phone because of it's distinctive accent - a bit RP/posh:a bit non-posh bit of surrey (so slightly cockney-ish):a bit Welsh borders - and you know what? I'm bloody proud of it, and so should your daughter be of her accent when it emerges, as it'll be a lovely story of her life to date . And it's great fun when people try to place your accent

steppemum, if you take offence at the OP's discussion you should perhaps read the thread more fully or when you are less tired. I didn't see anything rude whatsoever, and by the looks of things, neither did most of the other respondents. if anything the idea of elocution lessons for a 5 y.o. was/is seen as a possible/elaborate wind-up, but it soon becomes apparent that the OP is a newcomer and simply has a curiosity about language and accent, as most of the rest of us do.

Vintage

You said, a while back, that "las" is always pronounced "loss". Not in South America! And I know Spanish people who use "las" for the female plural. I think you may have been misinformed.

Back to your OP, DD is likely to adapt her speech for the situation - as in local accent at school and possibly mimic your accent when speaking with you. I've known a lot of children to do this when living overseas.

As an aside, dd1 got the bell at the regional spelling bee because a danged American couldn't pronounce that tricksy 'tt'.

True. It was her second run at regionals. The first year she went out because she was being thick (and we teased her mercilessly). The second year it was because the pronouncer didn't pronounce his double 't's. All the other kids were trying to get her to appeal.

We'll get our own back this year. Dd2 is on her way, and what with her dysarthria, if they ding her, I'll 'ave 'em for discrimination.

Non-RP accents are not necessarily stigmatized, well yes not stigmatized by others with non-RP accents.

Eh? I am an RP speaker and I don't look down on people with other accents or think it's amusing if someone says 'haitch'.

OP, I think what people are wound up about is that you are making sociolinguistic judgements about British English accents which, as an American, you are probably not in the best position to make. I mean, fights break out on here when British people say snooty things about other British accents, let alone when foreigners do it.

We have been in NZ for 3 years and ds3 who was three when we arrived still sounds very English. One girl in my class with an English mum and an NZ dad sounds very English and she has never been to the UK.

Some words are said the American way here such as yoghurt but as a boy in my class said - we are speaking English and Horopu is English so the way she says it must be right!

I think you have got everything backwards. You have NO IDEA of the appeal of an English accent to most Americans. When we're in the US, one of my kids only has to say "Harry Potter" with their cute British accent, to be surrounded by an admiring crowd of teenage girls. My husband can charm his way into the heart of any American flight attendant or hotel receptionist.

Me with my American accent? English people think I'm thick, and Americans don't notice me.

Where in the states are you from? I live in California and almost everyone here pronounces TT or T as a D.

Shag is a dance in America but a slang for inter course in uk. Hence me being b alarmed heating a 7 year old explain she had learned to shag really well once

And you need to learn how to say Z and garage properly.....

oh and yes, having read the rest of the thread 'D' is an approximation of the sound BUT it is the same sound in TT and DD (and my native Californian friends agree). So better and bedder would sound exactly the same and would sound closer to bedder but not exactly a D sound.

Guildford still varies a lot in terms of accent depending on the area and the school and what the children pick up on at home. I grew up in that area. Friends can still tell I went to a large state comp on the Woking side and that as my DF is from Croydon and DM is from Epsom my Guildfordian Queens English is peppered with a few 'sarf larndan-isms' but I still pronounce everything properly. I agree that DC will change and then change again if you move back to the states but a move to the Ford isn't going to make DD sound all plummy overnight! My DSF had elocution lessons when he moved from Essex to Surrey which always makes me giggle!

Don't take it so seriously*, Steppemum. I take the OP's statements same as you except that I am enjoying putting forward questions laced with irony.

(*This is my new resolution, not to take anybody on MN all that seriously.)

Do people really not see how rude the OP's attitude is?

I mean, from an American POV it's really quite offensive (as well as barmy).

And I agree with math the southern accent on its own is not an automatic impediment. Oh that Bill Clinton, what a loser.

dreaming, nope don't see it.

I actually thought it was being Northern that was upposed to be an impediment for US presidential candidates, as it's more difficult for a northerner to get the Southern vote than the other way round?

And yes of course the OP is rude and silly. Wanting her child to speak a 'nice' variant of English, not an 'awful' or not-nice one? Which presumably applies to the vast majority of us here who don't speak RP or the 'standard' American way (whatever that is). Saying people with southern US accents sound uneducated, and claiming that it was her lack of such an accent that led to career success for her?

It's a wind-up though. Obviously it is.

Really, Rich?

'Bronx or Boston accent? Heaven forbid. Those are just awful.'

'I also her to speak a nice variant of English, be it the standard American English or RP.'

'My internalized reflex would be "Yikes, that's painful to hear!" but I would do my best to not display my discomfort. I may not like to hear those accents, but I'm not a rude person.'

I imagine the OP came on here thinking it was a bunch of Brits and no one would possess any of the accents she thinks are so awful. But as I do, yes, I think statements like this are pretty freaking rude.

I would guess that the OP has issues around this, if she grew up in the South and purposefully did not acquire the accent and feels that led to her getting a good job -- basically she is attaching over-importance to the accent, thinking that accounts for everything.

And while I'm not going to say accents don't ever affect anything, it is just one aspect to a person. I certainly know many many people in DC with southern accents who are very successful.

I'm not sure the OP realises how provincial her attitude is. Her daughter is going to grow up as a global citizen, in the 21st century, her life is not going to be ruined by a bit of an accent. If anything it will signal to people that she has international experience and a wealth of knowledge about the world.