Other people's violent kids...

[rumtumtigger]

My dd is 6 and there are 3 boys in her class who physically hurt the other children every day.

Is this typical? And how do others deal with it? My dd is refusing to go to parties when these boys are invited along, which seems a shame. The parents of the violent boys don't stay at the parties so other kids normally get hurt. One of the parents doesn't even stop her child hurting others when she is there. All the parents concerned are educated and comfortably off and don't neglect their kids in other ways.

Anyone else have experience of this - is it the same for all of us?

Yorkiemom I'm horrified that your nephew's friend is actually being repeatedly hospitalised! That is outrageous. In this case I think the culprit just has to be excluded... the problem must be dealt with and he (the culprit) needs help, but other children must also be protected. If I had a child who was violent I would remove him from the situation; the school should do the same.

I am getting really worried for when my DS does to school now!

Spidermama you obviously have a real problem with boys. Let me tell you something - boys are very very different from girls. They are confident human beings who want to be leaders and who want to move ahead in life. I haev to say some girls who I have come across are complete wimps who have been totally wrapped up in cotton wool by their mothers and this is not good. I have two boys who are quite boisterous and can be trouble at times. I constantly watch them and remove them from situations. I am as strict as I can be with an 18 month old and 4 1/2 year old. We all try to do our best for our children but I feel you are totally alienating boys. I hope for your sake you dont have any more children cos boy you will certainly see a difference in having a boy to a girl - GOOD LUCK

Sorry Spidermuma I see you have 3 boys already

Posting from the US so 6 hours before time of post; not up in middle of the night ...

This thread seems to be unfairly harsh to Spidermama, with whom I agree on this: all parents should be aware of the needs of the majority. Perhaps that is too un-PC for everyone to swallow; whatever; it's true. Common manners dictates thinking of others, and if I noticed one "bad apple" ruining a situation for 29, I would conclude the fault certainly lay with her parents. And if I were her mother, I'd be outta there.

Don't honestly know what I would do if we had problems with our DS. Guaranteed I would be keeping the above in mind, though. We don't take 2.5 year old DS to movie theaters or fine restaurants because (barring a special kids' movie or special event) those aren't places for 2 year olds - I remember what it's like to be disrupted by someone else's child in those locations, and would be super if mine were the problem! So we avoid that as parents; why wouldn't we?

While "unfair isolation" of a violent child is one take on it, perhaps the real story is the child's just not ready for certain situations yet, and until you can get to the source of his behavior, why subject others to it? We'll be taking DS to theaters and fine dining - when he's 6, or shows he can handle it!

So kudos to you Spidermama; you're every bit as courageous as Flip for posting what you have on this very interesting thread. Sympathize with you too, Flip; don't think I don't. No one should have to deal with what your child puts you through.

For what it's worth, I've never once encountered a consistently violent child in my short 2.5-year career as DS's parent here in US. I consider myself lucky, esp. after reading this thread.

thanks snowleopard I know the boys mom ans she is a lovely understanding mom who has tried various methods to resolve the situation.At the moment the school are monitoring the situation and I think if there's one more incident he will be excluded permanently, which is sad but this particular boy needs professional help and fast before he gets himself into real trouble.
I would like to point out though to all worried moms that this situation is in the extreme, and i certainly did'nt mean to "scare" any moms.

i was bullied myself as a teenager and as a result swopped schools at 13,(teenage girls can be nasty!!!) and carried on my schooling happily, with no long terms effects, there are happy endings. Although i do understand that at 6 its a different matter.

thanks snowleopard I know the boys mom ans she is a lovely understanding mom who has tried various methods to resolve the situation.At the moment the school are monitoring the situation and I think if there's one more incident he will be excluded permanently, which is sad but this particular boy needs professional help and fast before he gets himself into real trouble.
I would like to point out though to all worried moms that this situation is in the extreme, and i certainly did'nt mean to "scare" any moms.

i was bullied myself as a teenager and as a result swopped schools at 13,(teenage girls can be nasty!!!) and carried on my schooling happily, with no long terms effects, there are happy endings. Although i do understand that at 6 its a different matter.

sorry my little "darling" boy pressed post twice!!!!!

Not had a chance to read all the posts but just putting in my experiences. ds who is 6 going on 7 and big for his age can be aggressive, more so with his sister but often when out. He has autism but appears totally normal so its difficult to warn people so I have to watch him all the time. His behaviour tends to be reactive ie if someone is in 'his' space or if someone has a toy he wants or if kids are play fighting and he doesn't understand and gets overexcited. But as he is getting physically bigger I have to make sure he doens't hurt anyone even if its not intentional.

I take the view that yes he is in the minority and therefore I have to conform to everyone else's rules up to a point of course. These soft play areas which he loves are about going a bit wild. As long as he doesn't shout too much or hit someone then that is fine. For awhile I was very nervous about going out and wonderded if I should keep him in but teachers/psychologist have said that he has to learn to get along with people and keeping him away isn't going to do that.

A lot of my strategies are preventative, ie making sure where we go, going at quiet times, intervening if I see a situation going wrong etc. Also if he's in a dispute with someone I may go up to theparents and ask them to tell their kids to keep away from him. This works well particularly if the kids are teasing him or winding him up which unfortunatley does happen but of course he may lash out.

It's all a bit of give and take really. Interesting thread.

Hi RTT! Well, parents' evening has happened and it's actually quite funny. Ds2's tescher has his reports from preschool and I spoke to her at length before he started in reception to 'prewarn' her as it were, so she knows exactly what he is/was like.
She reckons we have almost taught him too well - in that now he has a block about defending himself and getting into trouble for it! She said there were problems with a group of boys in his class establishing the pecking order and perhaps ds2 ought to be told he is allowed to lose his temper with them sometimes or risk being a victim of bullying. So what do you do? To my mind, he's a little like a recovering alcoholic, and to let him have just one 'drink' now and again could send him tumbling off that wagon :)

Whaat? That sounds suspiciously like the teacher is saying bullying is the victim's fault!

until recently my cousins ds1 was quite a violent child, we think stemmed from the arrival of his younger twin brothers. about a year ago she sought advice from a sort of "parent's fairy godmother." she taught my cousin how she needed to deal with the situations and he is now the well behaved little boy we used to know and love. she basically said any other bad behaviour should be ignored, but not violence. with violence she said to tell him not to do it once and give the reason why - ie that it is wrong to hit/bite/kick etc. if he did it again he would be given a warning that he would have to go to time out and then if he did it again the threat must be carried out and he was put in time out for the usual a minute for each year of his age. this actually had effect pretty much straight away. obviously it didn't go away overnight, but it worked. with things like parties and play dates at first she would stay but away from where he was so he would quite often forget she was there. once he had got used to the new rules, she would tell the parent in charge about the rules and that they should also implement them if he misbehaved, which the parents were happy to do.

Hi

Wow, what a thread! Full of emotion. Well in my skim through I think there was one group of people who aren't represented and that is teachers! I'm a primary school teacher and noticed that in their frustration (and believe me I understand how maddening it is, my dd was bullied by an older boy who was the son of a friend in a group of 'mummy friends' - in the end the stress that my dd was under seeing these friends just forced me to leave the group and find a new circle of friends where disciplining your children wasn't frowned on!) there were some comments about schools not caring. So aaaaaaaaaanyway I just have to respond to the 'teachers don't want to be out on the playground because they want their cups of tea' comment. Too darn right we do. 30 children under your sole care all morning and not even allowed a 15 minute break, ridiculous! I fully agree that playgrounds are not supervised closely enough (one or two staff to 200 children is not good enough) but WHERE is the funding for extra playtime supervisors (like they have at lunch time?) As a class teacher and like so many others I would NEVER ignore a parent who came to me with worries about bullying and of course would do anything in my power to stop it. It is not always as straight forward as that though...special needs support is thinner on the ground than ever, we are fearful of 'labelling' children and the ridiculous amounts of bureaucracy needed to get a child observed/allocated support etc is just crazy. Teachers also have to be soooo careful to act in a way that is 'perceived' as fair and unbiased by all parents. Please don't think this is a litany of excuses for some schools poor attitude towards and support of bullied children or in fact bullies, it is just an expression of the frustration felt by those who want to help. Teachers are an 'easy' target but as a teacher and a parent I see the difficulties on both sides.
Also, I don't remember who said it about some girls being mollycoddled etc by their mums and of course this is true of some people but I would also like to say that my dd was a VERY sensitive baby and young toddler and I would sometimes be mortified by her constant crying when other children so much as touched her! I am not one of those mothers that runs over and scoops her into a perfumed embrace every time she fall over etc etc but some children just ARE sensitive no matter what!

Ok, so this has turned into a full blown essay so I shall end here. Just to say this thread has been a fascinating read and I've gained alot of insight into how it is to be a parent of the 'bully' - not a side that gets to give their point often. Congrats ladies!

Maddie
x

Maddie - the teachers at ds's school are brilliant. They share out the playground supervision and do a lot for him. Also he's just lost his lunchtime auxilliary and they are also sharing sitting at the table with him.

Great to hear Eulalia!

fullmoon that is a strange dilemma!
What will you do?

I do think that physical aggression in 6 year olds is very different to physical aggression in little ones though. It seems to me that little one may explore physical aggression and then learn that it is not acceptable - part of normal social development, whereas 6 year olds SHOULD have learned this by now.

there is of course the issue of impulse control with a 6 year old. Some children struggle with this-even at the age of 6. Surely this has some part to play in why a six year old may still act in an aggressive way even though they know it to be wrong.

It seems there is a big difference between kids who have certain SN and those who's parents have in fact allowed these violent/ aggresive tendencies of a toddler go unchecked as they get older. Plus quite a few situations in between as nothing is black and white.

I have a very big and strong 9yr old who will not stand up to the bullies at school but who used to have serious and constant agressive outbursts at home. We worked through this and he is a lovely pleasent boy. He still has outburts that leave him looking like a spoilt toddler. He was being harrased on the way home from a school last week in front of me and even after telling him what to do his halfhearted retaliation only served to put the 2 of them very close to the road so I had to step in. In the end I grabbed the stick from the boy and chucked it away.

If they boys parents had witnessed this i would fully expect them to step in and stop the situation not expect my son to tuff it out and sort it out him self.

If at 6yrs if you struggle to physicaly control your child the future must be a worry as they will only get bigger and stronger. I realised this and decided I had to tackle it early as I was starting to have problems restraing my child even though I have had training to restrain adults, in somewhat different situations I must add .

Oops tough not tuff.

RTT - don't know. Am so relieved that his temper is not such a huge issue now.
There is one little boy in his class who is very similar to ds is personality, but he hasn't improved since preschool days (they were togtther then too - poor bloody preschool staff :)) and he really knows how to press ds's buttons, IYKWIM. They are not 'safe' togtether, all hell breaks loose when they both lose their tempers!
Cat64 - know what yu mean, I felt for several years that I didn't dare leave my younger ds2 with anyone because of the temper thing. Now some of my friends look upon me with bewilderement when I talk about it because they have never seen that side of ds,so have no idea of how difficult he was at that time. They just see a very 'normal' young boy.
It's funny though, if some good comes out of this, it is that I do see 'naughty' violent little (and big!) boys as a challenge - they need lots of love and praise. I almost want to go out and hug young thugs, bring them home, feed them homemade biscuits and ask them to talk their anger issues through with me

i havee read this with intrest, i have 2 sons age 9 and 5, and the 9 year old is being bullied by a really nasty child in his class whos mother was a friend of mine until i mentioned that the boys were having problems and we should get them together and see what the problems were and what we can do about it.
Her son was excluded from 3 playgroups (she told me this herself) although it was always the fault of everyone but her son.
He also picked on lots of other children in the class before singleing out my son, andwhenever her son does something wrong she will look the other way as if not seeing it makes it ok.
When my son did hit back she sent her husband round to the house to yell and kick the door.
When i go into the playground with my children this "child " sticks out his tounge, and yells abuse, he has so far been given a whole 1 detention over this, and when i told him off his mother once again sent her husband and his half brother to the school to threaten to "do me over" when i see what type of family this child comes from (and knowing a lot about them from when we were on speaking terms) i can see why he is the way he is.
The funny thing about this is the mother works in the school as a class room assistent and is quick to tell off every other child but never her own.
It got so bad that my son threatend to kill himself he was so unhappy at the school, i have looked in to changing school, spoken to everyone from the class teacher to the governers and still this "child" carry's on making everyones life a misery while his parents turn a blind eye.
He has even taken a few swipes at my 5 year old, it gets very frustrating, but i know that next year this "child " will be going to high school and will be a little nobody in a school full of bigger kids and i really do think he is going to get battered if he carries on how he is and if his parents dont do anything about his bulling (wish i could be there to see it).
I do know how hard it is for parents and i know my own children are not perfect, any parent who thinks their child is needs a good shot of reality but if my children do wrong i dont look the other way and pretend i did not see it and it is not happening, i deal with it make sure they know it is not going to be put up with and it is not to be done again. But when all is said and done some children are just horrible and some parents are just stupid and we just have to teach our children to deal with it.

Sorry to hear your tale Kimi, how awful for you.

Very interesting thread which has given me great food for thought. I have a parents meeting lined up to discuss what to do (or what we parents want the school to do) about 4 or five boys in my dd's class. See my thread (can't do a link, well, probably could but too lazy to work out how).

Obviously there are disruptive kids whose parents are doing everything they can to resolve the probs, and then there are those whose parents couldn't care less. I suspect the split is 50-50 in the problem group in dd's class. I know that one boy's parents have been called to the school on numerous occasions and justt don't turn up.

In an ideal world all these kids would get the appropriate help and support they need (maybe different parents too!) but in the meantime MY child's schooldays are spent in an atmosphere of stress and discontent.

There's a boy in my daughter's class who's extremely aggressive in a very sly way. His mother covers for him, she lies to the school to protect him from discipline when he's been bullying others. I have no idea how the school deal with it, but I know quite a few parents have complained. It's horrific to think of this going on at school, and as they get older it becomes more worrying.

I have a seven year old who is quiet fiesty but very empathetic so when trying to prevent the child who usually gets in trouble from actually getting in trouble, it ends up in tears - he doesn't see it as help and strikes out and she tells him off until it gets to the point she gets physically hurt. She's not the typical 'bully' target, as she takes no bull, but when it escalates, the adults turn a blind eye and the unruly kid remains very much unruly, thus instilling apathy in place of her empathy. I've talked with the teacher and the HM, but I think they need to digest it in black and white.
Other suggestions to consider on a postcard please!