undergraduate seminars on basic grammar and punctuation!!!

[thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat]

horrified to see this advertised today in my local university. This was the first in a series of seminars that included essay writing, paragraphs, making an argument, introductions, conclusions. WTF do they do at A level, grumble grumble wouldn;t happen in my day, what are things coming to.

I dislike having to correct comments from the teacher when ds brings stuff home. I'm not perfect but I do know some grammar stuff.

Writing an academic essay at uni is IMO v.different to writing one at A'Level.

However I have been mortified to find that on my nursing course we have had 5 hours worth of instruction on how to write ONE 2500 essay with v.clear simple questions. And frankly half the people on my course are painfully thick (in a revision lecture tody we were asked to give an example of an inequality in healthcare due to social class one girl answered hopefully with 'disability' sigh).
For this nurisng essay I have to write we have also had the oppertunity to hand it in twice for it to be checked, and basically its been shoved firmly down on throats exactly how to do it. Admitedly I have an english degree, but I find the whole thing patronising, and worrying.

I'm afraid my whole year at Uni (a few years ago now), doing English Lit in one of the best departments in the country, had to be given a couple of seminars on basic grammar. The ridiculous thing is that none of us had ever been taught it at school! We are the generation of lost grammar! It doesn't mean that we're not entirely literate, it means that the school system let us down! For some ridiculous reason grammar was removed from the curriculum because it was too boring.
On the matter of essay writing I can confirm that there is an enormous diference between essay writing for A Levels and for degree. I have to say I never got taught essay writing basics but it would've been nice. Ok, rant over.

In my day the basics of writing an essay at a level were not that different to writing one at undergraduate level. The expectation in terms of analysis might be higher but that comes from your subject specific teaching; the basic ideas of putting together a coherent structure were not that different for me. I sound like an old bat I know, but I think something has gone seriously wrong. I don;t know why I was suprised at the poster, because at work I know several graduates who are literally incapable of writing coherently and organising their thoughts. Its inconceivable to me that you can come out of university like this.

I think a of of rigour has been lost from the teaching of some of the more academic subjects across the entire 4-18 range. It's gone in part because of the width of subjects now covered. I was taught 7 part sentence analysis at my secondary school but no ICT, PSHE, politics, DT etc. It means that at university the undergraduates start from much further back than previously. When I recently went to a 10 year reunion with friends from university, the tutor who came, said that we had covered in 2 years what current undergraduates were now covering in 3. There are obviously lots of other reasons such as Plowright and other trends in education which meant for instance that my dh knows no times tables as he was left to "discover " them for himself and now 4 decades later still hasn't quite got round to it!

I think that Rhian is right. There is a whole generation of people out there who were never taught how to spell and write grammatically. Moreover, they don't realise why it matters. Today's students are no less intelligent than those 20 or 30 years ago. But they have been less well prepared in terms of practical 'study skills' for the requirements of a university education. IMO they are much better prepared socially and emotionally.

For me, the key is to make students realise that these things (spelling, punctuation, grammatical correctness) do matter. My biggest gripe is with those students on whose work I constantly correct the same mistakes (things like 'its' versus 'it's', sentences without main verbs, and such like) and who simply don't take on board the comments. (I presume they don't even look at them, or just think that I am a sad old pedant... which may just be true .) But most students are willing to learn. They simply haven't been taught this stuff before.

Oh, and I'd add that it's not just students. I edit an academic journal, and you'd be amazed how many academics (even at a high level) can't write clearly and correctly.

Thanks Ellbell. I think "Eats Shoots and Leaves" should be forced upon all A Level students a.s.a.p. - it certainly taught me more about punctuation than my entire school career.

Oh, and the point of the seminars are, presumably, so that one does not come out of University like that! It is a shame that Uni had to take responsibility for school's shortcomings but I am glad that they did.

If it's anything like in my institution, these seminars are optional. It hasn't quite got so bad yet that they need to be made compulsory, although I do drop comments about these things into lectures randomly in the hope that something might rub off on my listeners. (Last week's little lecture was on the verb 'to prophesy'... not 'to prophesise'!!) Staff might suggest that a particular student follow these classes, but it would often be in response to a student coming to see you upset about getting poor grades or comments on essays about spelling/punctuation/grammar.

I think that the situation may improve in the next 10 years as we see the effects of the literacy hour. Certainly my dd1 (in Year 1) recognises parts of speech, punctuation marks (including things like ellipsis) and what-have-you much better than some of my 18-year-olds!

interesting posts Ellbell. I think you're right that some people don't realise the importance of language. IMHO language is itself a means of ordering our thoughts - without good logical labels, our thoughts are a jumble. It's not just about apostrophes - it's about understanding what you yourself are saying - if you don't understand it, how can anyone else? Apostrope abuse niggles, but I can forgive it - but sentences without verbs are unforgiveable. Basically there's no point in having ideas if you can't communicate them, but further, if you can't communicate them it makes me doubt how good they are.

Couldn't have put it better myself, TWWTSWAH!

I can confirm that huge numbers of supposedly intelligent students are both unable and unwilling to string together a coherent sentence, let alone a watertight academic essay.
I don't think that schools can be blamed for the trend for students to write in text-speak - I routinely receive barely legible e-mails from students requesting advice. Some of them do not even have basic punctuation (capitals, full-stops etc.) but are a stream of consciousness outpouring.
For a short time I worked for a university principal. The correspondence he received from students was appalling - I often opened letters with no return address with Dear Principle (sic) as the greeting. They couldn't even be bothered to look up his name!
I agree that, seeing as grammar has been absent from the national curriculum for some years, students can't be expected to learn the intricacies of language by some sort of osmosis process, but so many of the post-school-A level students are just plain lazy.
I don't mean to offend anyone on here, but, working with barely literate students every day really does my goat. And when they graduate they will have the same qualification as me.

And I should add (or perhaps I shouldn't but bugger it) that I know of three mid-sized HE institutions that have been forced to lower grades in order to get their students to pass degrees. No reflection on the teaching at the institutions, but more on the quality of students they are required to accept in order to attain basic funding.

SallyStrawberry - don't get me wrong, the students I am griping about are the 18 year old post-school ones who choose to use text speak and are too plain lazy to write legibly.
I work with part time, mature and nursing students who have either been out of the academic loop for a number of years or have never had to write an academic essay. IME these are the students who are keen to address any writing problems they have. I am not having a go at these students, quite the opposite.

Hi Sally... I think the point of most of the posts on here is that we know that students aren't thick... just the opposite. This is just something they've never been taught. And I agree with BadHair that mature students are the most prepared to tackle the issue and try to solve it.

BTW, I bet your uni does have some sort of writing classes somewhere, but they may not advertise them. Is there a study skills centre? If not, try contacting the disabilities unit. I know that makes it sound a bit extreme, but often there are courses run specifically for dyslexic students which are also open to other interested parties and which might be useful (even though, obviously, the problem of not having been taught to punctuate properly at school is not the same as having dyslexia...just before everyone jumps on me). Is there a mature students' society? They might have information on this sort of thing too.

4,000-word essays are extremely long, imho. Ours range from 1,500-3,000 and that's in a very discursive arty-farty humanities subject.

But what about the students who are in fact very intelligent.. ARE capable of achieving as a result.. but are actually much more practical than academic?? I think these seminars/courses are excellent for people who have the ability to achieve.. but need extra help with 'getting it down on paper'.

My DS (Y9 and currently doing his options) is an example. I have to admit I actually used to assume he is was quite 'thick' in some respects.. but three years at a good school has taught me otherwise! He is pretty crap still (although massively improved) and getting stuff down on paper.. but what goes on in his head particuarly in certain subjects, is well above average. (Eg he has been idenitifed as 'gifted and talented' in design and technology and will be doing an early GCSE to reflect this.) He has just been predicted to be capable of achieving a handful of GCSEs at A - C grade (which I am amazed and thrilled about!!) (plus another handful of others, probably lower) and for the first time I am thinking 'this boy of mine could well take further education quite far..' when previously I had assumed he would get out of school as quickly as possible.. He is even interested in further education which is also quite amazing!

But for him to do so he will ALWAYS need a lot of support in the grammar department and even more re essay writing, paragraphs, making an argument, introductions, conclusions etc. And I assume he would not be on his own in this. So it's not just about schools failing to educate children to the right standards.. a kids failing to achieve. There are certain kids who CAN achieve beyond school, (A levels and beyond) IF they are allowed to take advantage of this type of support that 'would never have happened in our day'.

SJ x

Hi SJ

Exactly... There is nothing wrong with accepting that you need extra support and asking for help. I'm not particularly thick in my own subject area, but I don't understand figures at all, and now that managing the budget is part of my job description [panic emoticon] I need - and ask for - help at every step of the way. It's great that this help is available (at all levels - school, university, in the workplace, etc.).

I do think, however, that there are things which at one point were taught as a matter of course in schools (to those of us pushing or over 40... you're way too young, SJ) and which, for a long-ish period of time were not taught. English grammar and punctuation would be an example. These were given less importance than a more communicative approach, which (I think I said, or at least hinted at, in an earlier post) has had its advantages. Students nowadays are better at expressing their opinions and, indeed, at knowing what their opinions are. They are good at giving presentations and at discussing things orally. The standard of discussion in seminars is much higher than when I was a student. There are pros and cons to every system of course. But to produce written work at university level (as you well know) a good grasp of correct written English is essential.

Right... will go and do some work now, lest someone send me to a seminar on avoiding excess verbosity!

Well having interviewed some students last year for a (Blue Chip co.) for whom text speak was the norm for completing their application forms, I think it's a move in the right direction.

[waves back at Ellbell] (Are you impressed with LJ's accomplishments??! I know I'm fishing.. but you wouldn't think this was the same child of a couple of years ago would you! He goes skiing on Friday btw... avec the gloves you bought him!)

And total at the thought of text speak on an application form!!!!

Interesting thread.
I don't have a problem with the students who accept that their written English is bad - fine, they find it difficult, we can provide extra help for them. It's not their fault, it's a shortcoming in the education system they have been through. And as someone noted below, this generation can be really, really good at oral communication, so it's swings and roundabouts.
What we do find, though, is that there are student who really hate having their written English corrected - they complain that we are negative and pedantic if we comment on it.
Oh gosh - something that happened in my dh's workplace last week - they were advertising for a new admissions secretary and were told by Personnel that they were not allowed to put 'fluent and correct written English' on the job spec as it was discriminatory - WTF???

SJ... I am very pleased and proud of your ds1, but not surprised. He has always struck me as a supremely intelligent young man.

I looked yesterday at an application form for a PhD which wasn't written in text speak, but on which the prospective STUDENT used a strange MIXTURE of capitals AND lower-case LETTERS, with APPARENTLY no justification WHATsoever. (We rejected it!)

I am well-known for my intense pedantry, and although the students do take the piss a bit I think that they do appreciate it on the whole, although there are the odd ones who are resentful of being corrected.

But SS, no other degree gets this support, including my last degree which was far more demanding in terms of essays etc and on which there were many many mature students. I think 4000 is shocking for a 1st year essay. And i was never taught grammar at school, not in any real depth.

I learnt more by doing essays myself and learning from my own mistakes. And I have found academic essays to be v.different in terms of the referencing, using quotes etc, so I understand supoort on that. But 5 hours on how to write one essay to me is overkill. The point of university is to work independently, and I thought that access/a'levels/nqv were supposed to prepare you for this. For my group the constant re-hashing of issues has only served to panic people more, and to complicate the issues. Most other subjects provide office hours where students can go and have a chat to their tutor about issues, but nursing doesn't so this is what they have to do. And I do have to go because it counts towdards our hours and I have missed a lot this year already.

I actually learnt more about grammer through learning German than from the English Language lessons at school. One of my chemistry professors at university said that if he had his way, history would be compulsory at O'level because, in his opinion, it helps students to learn how to write properly.

Aaah, a subject close to my heart. I recently attended a staff/student meeting for my MSc course. I spent a happy (for me ) half hour telling the lecturers off for poor spelling and grammar. What has the world come to when I have to point out multiple errors in Masters level exam papers to those Phds who should know beter?

Agree with speedy that learning a foreign language, especially German or Latin, is the best way to improve your knowledge of English grammar (perhaps not spelling and punctuation, though, as different languages have different rules).

Also, sadly, agree with slug about some (not all) academics.