Children arrive at school incapable of learning

[Brycie]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222176/Chaotic-homes-creating-children-incapable-learning-says-Gove-Teachers-report-year-olds-nappies-speak-sentences.html I wonder what people think of this. Is this child abuse?

What kind of intervention can be offered? On a school thread the other day one poster was talking about how long it can take to teach a child to ask to be excused for the toilet. It seems nuts not to start intervention earlier. Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2? How can a programme be created which "discriminates" against children from better organised families to prevent the Surestart problem (ie being overtaken by the enthusiastic parents who don't really need it as much). There must be lots of social workers here who have an opinion but other people too.

Why don't we just kill all the families the government and the Daily Mail don't approve of?

It wont be the first time that has been mooted as a suggestion. Marie Stopes being an earlier ( feminst) advocate of this together with Hitler and Stalin ..... that is said with a level of tongue in cheek by the way.

As a former Nanny, I've worked & lived with families who are amongst the highest earners in the country & I can honestly say that a lot of children I've observed have the same issues as those whose families struggle financially & live at the lower end of the social spectrum
Examples are not teaching manners to pre-schoolers as "they'll learn them when they're old enough". Not correcting behaviour because "they're only young & this is what 1/2/3 year olds do". Allowing children to be rude & violent towards adults & other children without ever making them apologise because "they're too little to understand what they've done" watch them break toys, rip book, turn plugs on & off and say " how clever & inquisitive he is, he's desperate to learn how things work"
These children also rock up at preschool with no boundaries & lack of basic skills

This is why I think the issue is somewhat deeper than traditional social deprivation theories.

A lot of DCs who were in 'care' seem unable to parent their DCs properly; care should be made 100% better than it is.

Hullygully I was lucky with most of my employers, we all had the same child rearing ideas!
I've had interviews with parents where within 5 minutes I know I could never work with.
Seeing some of the other children & Nannies in the peer group was terribly frustrating.

On a different note I hate these parent blaming stories in the media.

DD is 6 but looks older and has severe ASD and operates at an 18 month to 2 year old level, although she looks fairly much like any other 6 7/8 year old.

She threw a bit of bread down in a cafe the other day and spilled some yoghurt and tried to draw in it, then was trying to run around and i was physically hanging on to her, and this woman turned to sit facing us and was saying "it's the parents fault, it's the parents fault" and RANTING at us. Was awful.

Stories like this one which get picked up in the Daily Mail totally fuel these people and some of us have to suffer.

And yes I know this story is about NT children, although I'd imagine a fair amount of kids with unDXed SN are in there are well.

We should get on with parenting our own kids and stop judging others, IMO. Threads like this are full of smug posts about "it's so easy to instil good manners" etc.

It isn't always easy for people, and not necessarily because of SN, but possibly because they haven't learnt how to do so from their own parents.

Encouraging the judging of parents is not healthy IMO.

And that is not me trying to make everything about SN, although I have no NT kids so that is my point of reference. I hate the smug judging of other people who haven't had the same advantages in life as oneself.

And that was prob my longest post ever.

I agree Please. The difference is rich parents send their kids to private schools who want as many bums on seats as possible so put up with it.Said parents aren't a problem to the gov as they aren't in the same system.

Fangs - It's not (for most of us) about judging NT chaotic kids, it's about figuring out how to improve their lives.

Yes that is what I think it should be about Hully..but lots of people do seize on the chance to judge others and be all smug which gets my goat. I do know there are lots of decent people around too and many on this thread.

I know I may be slightly biased here due to feeling the brunt of judgy people unfairly a bit too often though.

and I do feel stories in the media inflame the judgy types even more

( wish I had shoved judgy woman's daily mail up her bottom)

I agree Please. The difference is rich parents send their kids to private schools who want as many bums on seats as possible so put up with it.Said parents aren't a problem to the gov as they aren't in the same system

Thats another type of sterotype though isnt it? Most private schools I know will not put up with bad behaviour. We remove children quickly by expelling them. We dont generally put up with SN children either ( as I am often criticised over because it is deemed I dont know about them or havent got the "problem") . In the school where I work we have some SN but they are not educated "inclusively" it has to be said. However, we do not have many SN pupils at all. We generally do not take them.

Unlike the state school my DS was in where a third of the class had EBD issues and the state school whereI worked where a similar number were in my mainstream classroom every day.

I know most MNers do not like or want to discuss that kind of thing though , so I will say nothing more.

You should be able to discuss anything but you can surely understand why people might find the whole concept slightly galling?

Yes you should have fangsgo How dare she?

Hmmm I have friends who work in and pay for private.One of my friends who taught in a top boarding school was staggered at some of the behaviour that was consistently turned a blind eye to. Another friend has removed her child along with others due to bad behaviour basically being ignored. Another fiend did the same at another school for the same reasons.Both said it's ignored/covered up more if a child has several siblings as they are often seen as a cash cow.

I've taught in a very select state area that fed a top prep school,I was truly shocked at behaviour that wasn't dealt with as it would have been if it had happened on the local council estate with massive problems down the road. Funnily enough there was a problem with kids coming with zero book knowledge in said posh state school way back then.

However yes you're right that is a tad stereotypical and I haven't experience of the private sector myself so perhaps shouldn't comment.

Of course there are middle class DC with poor behaviours, but it isn't something that society need mither iteself over, i feel.

The stats show that MC kids generally do rather well in education and later on do rather well financially and socially.

Diverting attention away from those DC who really need it, is unfair IMVHO.

praire I taught in a girls' private school and a lot of them (esp. the very rich ones ) were dragged up by servants; it made them disturbed attention seekers actually. No doubt they are visiting their lack of parenting on their own DCs ATM.

But these girls must be diminishingly small in number! Hardly a problem for society at large!

Come on, we are talking about social mobility here and how to address it for the good of all of us.

Come on, we are talking about social mobility here and how to address it for the good of all of us

Are we? Wht do we need social mobility? I knoiw itsa given somehow but I wonder about it.

Gove talks in the article about " raw material" with reference to the DC coming to school and says it requires an early intervention point. It seems to me that if the problem is "raw material" and this material is coming from "chaotic homes" then the solution is tosource the " raw material " differently from " non chaotic homes" (?) If that is what we are talking about then it seems the intervention point needsto be somewhere before conception.

It is Marie Stopes isnt it?

Why do we need social mobility - sorry.

"
In your own time etc REFERS TO THE FACT THAT CHILDREN DEVELOP AT DIFFERENT RATES eg some walk at 9 months, some at 16, some talk at 1, some at 2."

yes it does, but people are using it to imply that children will spontaneously develop behaviours that are learned, and make time and patience to teach. it is being used to say 'don't bother'.

If we want it to change then educators have to start actually doing something when they see warning signs.

If a child is identified as being 'behind' or as 'having issues' then the school/nursery should have to call in the parent(s) and do whatever seems necessary. If that ultimately means calling SS because the parents adopt ostrich position or are clearly just neglectful then so be it!

I speak from experience. Children are being left behind and 'falling through the cracks' too often.

How can a child miss a minimum of 8 weeks of the school year every year for 3 years and not have the parent(s) called into question??

How can that same child barely register on the SAT's scale (even then they read it out to him) at year 3 and yet the school reports all say 'he's progressing well'. WHAT?

The head of the school in this case actually admitted that until a child is absent over 85% of the time they don't flag it as an issue and added that because 'he's a nice, quiet, non-disruptive boy' they weren't that concerned and besides RP said "No" to any help and intervention for son.

In this example the NRP gets chance to educate child for a period. Nothing wrong with child. Tests show more than capable and reading goes from Janet and John to Roald Dahl in one term. Writing is progressing. Has a bedtime, now eats everything (not just pasta and finger food). Uses utensils efficiently. Different child all round-blossoms.

Original RP snatches child back.

Can NRP go to court for custody on the basis that they were snatched and their son was and now is again, being neglected educationally and developmentally?
NO. It doesn't count. He's fed, watered and RP isn't a threat to him physically so we don't want to disrupt him again.
Besides culturally he's better with RP.

NRP fights for years for the best for son. School says we 'can only do so much' if RP doesn't back it up. Reports all say 'no homework', 'no kit', 'must read more', 'writing poor', 'needs support at home'.

NRP fights an expensive losing legal battle and no outside agency willing to help them help their son. "Not 'at risk' not interested".

Result? Year 8 with SAT's that read Year 4, low social skills, a weight problem and a blurry line between reality and fiction.

Congratulations school and the legal system! He won't have 'slipped through the cracks unnoticed' you've all stood around and watched, while holding NRP back

make = may take

Surely attendance is being questioned now. Schools are coming under pressure from Ofsted now. We recently all had letter from school along the lines of 'If your child does not feel too well in the morning just send us a letter and send them in - they normally perk up - only keep them off if they have been throwing up in previous 24 hours' The reason school is coming under pressure. The result - great for me as now can quote school letter to DCs trying to get day off. The children in the LEA are all expected to get 96% attendance and there are strict guidelines for leave on a points basis dependant upon average attendance. Having said that we do have a lot of traveller kids at the school but they are now also coming more regularly so things must be beginning to be put into action but that could be just in our LEA.

ankle, when you say 'system' you must mean the wider socio political systems right? Because although you are right (just now unless you and yours are at 'serious risk' and some, you just won't get see- no fund, no staff etc) I'm not sure it's the fault of social services/ CAHMS etc as they are underfunded and overwhelmed....

"I taught in a girls' private school and a lot of them (esp. the very rich ones ) were dragged up by servants; it made them disturbed attention seekers actually. No doubt they are visiting their lack of parenting on their own DCs ATM."

"But these girls must be diminishingly small in number! Hardly a problem for society at large!"

I think, sadly, that the segment of wealthy professional parents who have no time for their children and leave them in the hands of servants is growing very fast indeed. And such "parenting" breeds narcissism.