‘Posher’ versus ‘poorer’ school – what’s the real difference?

[stickygotstuck]

A bit long, sorry.

Please feel free to be very candid about this, I am being! I am forrin and my perception/hang ups about class/social advantage are different to DH's (or the majority of the population for that matter).

My DD will start primary school next September. So far, we have seen two state schools. Both are in our catchment, although one of them is very small and oversubscribed (we are talking 70 vs. 170-ish pupils) The larger school has a Good Ofsted, so does the small school. The larger school is in our relatively 'poor' (if you like more 'working class') village, whereas the small school is in the more affluent village next door. When I have spoken to parents asking for advice I can't shake the feeling that there is a certain snobbery towards the larger, 'poorer' school, and I am not sure that it's actually a better school.

We like both schools, but they are totally different and we can't decide our order of preference.

I guess my question is, would we be missing a trick by not pushing for the small school? Is there some sort of 'social advantage' to be gained for DD? (also could it even influence whether she gets a place in the oversubscribed local state grammar later on?). We are not the type to engage in convoluted social dilly-dallying for personal gain, but we are not so naive that we think it does not exist (we are just useless at it!) and we are aware that it's not all about numbers and academic ability.

vintage! Best of luck.

Vintage what age is your DD?

Are you familiar with OFSTED? You can find detailed reports of all schools, and they are rated from 1 (outstanding) to 4 (failing)

Sorry 4="poor". (Failing was my interpretation).

tad: Thanks so much! I appreciate it.

aufaniae, our daughter is 5 years old and is currently in kindergarten (reception?). She turned five at the end of August. Currently, she's the youngest child in her class.

Vintage, OK, you won't be part of the mad dash for school places for reception then, and because of this I'm not sure the February thing actually applies to you (although it's possible your local authority may do it differently to ours). Where I live we need to get our DS's name down (in Jan here) because he's starting reception class, aged 4.5, but this doesn't apply to other years.

IIRC if joining a school later than reception, then you'll need to add your DD's name to waiting lists for the local schools you like - there's no deadline - and then simply take a place when it comes up. That could be any time, it's very possible you won't have to have to wait till the new school year.

Thanks OP. I expect we will go for the other school.
How are you with making a decision?

We chose the school considered to be "rougher" at the time on the edge of the council estate. The school improved enormously while dd was there (she is now at secondary school) and at the end of Y6 the school actually obtained better SATs results than the 2 well-regarded outstanding schools down the road which have a better catchment area.
There is a lot of stereotyping on this forum but there were a good no. of parents at dds primary school who valued education and were prepared to support the school even though they were working class! The school was also very good at encouraging parents to become involved with the school community and parents are very supportive.
dd is now at a high achieving comp school and has had no problems transferring to this school from her primary school!
HTH

Hi DizzyHoneyBee, thanks for asking! I seem to fluctuate between schools, it depends on the mood on the day. It's driving me bonkers. By the "other school" do you mean the 'posh' one?

Thank you crazymum, great to hear your DD's success story. That's exactly what this larger school sounds like. It used to be OK-ish and it's apparently improved no end in the last 6 or 7 years. According to the prospectus and the Head, they have a very involved PTA, a very active school council and have very strong links with the local community and businesses.

Basically, the larger school is making all the right noises. Plus it's next door. I think we are leaning towards that one.

The other thing I didn't mention before is that the small school is CofE, whereas the larger school is a Community primary. We are not religious and the small one seems to push religion a bit too hard for our liking. But then, we recently found out from another MN post that ALL schools in the UK are bound by law to have some sort of Christian worship, so that's probably not a deciding factor any more.

Vintage be prepared for a shock.

If your daughter was 5 at the end of August, she would be in year 1 now, and will go into year 2 in September. If you arrive in January you need to apply straight away for a school place, and should be offered one within about a month (if a school has a place you will be offered it). We do not have to re-register children for school each year here, and even if you move you can keep your child at the same school. It is your responsibility to get your child there. You could even apply for a school place in Carlisle (the other end of the country) and if they had a place they would have to give it to you, getting her their would be your issue.

Don't worry about her being behind, she will catch up. I have known children arrive with no English and catch up very quickly.

You might also want to consider one of the nearby village infant schools, which might just have room.

Personally I would go for the larger school, it's closer and as you say it's making all the right noises

I have one dc in a "rough" state primary and one in a private prep school. There is more bullying, though of a mild nature, ime at the private school, I think larger schools with a very diverse intake are EXTREMELY clued about now about bullying and stamp on the first hint.

mummytime, are you saying that our daughter would be in year 1 rather than reception if she transfers to a school this academic year? Why would they do that? She's barely reading, and her maths skills leave much to be desired (though she does know that the log(1)=0 'cause her parents are unabashed nerds*).

*Do the British use the term nerd? Does it mean the same thing in the UK as it does in the US?

I was talking to a friend about this the other day. Funnily enough her daughter did not get on at the "posh" school, she got rubbish gcses and hung around with a group of quite entitled and spoilt girls and ended up with a bad attitude. She changed to a less "posh" school who have encouraged her to resit gcses and now she is able to do a levels and us working very hard to get into university.

You just never know. But going to the " posh" option isn't necessarily the be all and end all.

The cut off for school year in the UK is 31st August. If she was 5 before the 31st of August then she would be in year 1, I have known children go into year 1 who couldn't read at all, with work with a TA and the class teacher they caught up totally after 1 year. (I have also known children go in with no English, even in higher years, and catch up quite quickly.)

English education is based upon keeping children with the same age cohort, and the teacher "differentiating" the work in a class. In primary this often means, the teacher starting something with whole class "carpet time", followed by the children going to do work at their level, sometimes different tasks, sometimes different presentation, and sometimes aided.

I think nerd means pretty much the same, although we probably use geek more.

sticky, no, the one that is considered less "posh". I've made a decision now, I looked at the year 6 league tables and they are several points above the other school in all subjects. If all other things were even then it wouldn't come down to that but given that I prefer the school anyway it's a no brainer.
How about you?

My dd went to the posher school in our area for a few years and I moved her 18 months ago to the "poorer" school. Her poorer school is smaller, has better SEN provision (dd doesnt use it, but its there and V good - the kids openly talk about adhd, dyslexia etc), is very holistic, the kids have a trip almost every month to something or other (part or all fees covered by school funds). I like a big family. (only 125 pupils inc the nursery unit) It scored excellent by our equivalent of ofsted. Only 50% of the pupils take the transfer test, on average (5 out of the 6 kids in dds class will take it though) . In fact, those taking the transfer test go to an after school club for a year before the test.

The posher school had bullying galore - i know of 9 children who have left since my dd did due to poor school reaction to bullying, and lack of sen provision. The kids were taught to pass tests, not to love learning. (transfer test rate of 90 something %) They were on a program to improve their "acceptable" rating by eqiv of ofsted and are now just about rated as good. Two members of the board of govenenors resigned because they believed the school should not have been rated as highly as "good"

However. DD has learnt a variety of new curse words at new school, the other kids are more streetwise than her etc.

Im glad shes at the poorer school tbh.

PickledFanjoCat, thanks for that, good to see your friend's DD has been 'straightened' by the not so posh school.

bluecarrot, that's interesting to hear. Not sure what the transfer test is, whereabouts are you?
About the swear words, that may also have been unavoidable at the posh school. As for being more streetwise, that's something I vaguely worry about, but I see it as a different type of 'education'. To be honest, I also worry that being being in a tiny, posh primary school could make DD less prepared for the change to a large secondary later on and make the big wide world more of a shock. It may be better if they start to be a bit more streetwise a bit sooner rather than later (but in any case you can 'moderate' that to a degree - hopefully).

DizzyHoneyBee, glad to see you have made a decision. I haven't decided yet, but I'm still favour the 'rough' school. I think I'll go and see the third school and then make a decision.

Thanks all for your contributions!

Im in Northern Ireland - kids take a transfer test it they want to go to a grammar school, but not if they want to go to a secondary school. I assumed its the same in England!

Thanks bluecarrot, I should have guessed. I am in England but secondary education is still a great mystery to me!

I work in the 'rougher' school - high FSM, very high SEN, nearly 20% Travellers.

Today we had applications from 2 more children from the 'posh' school a couple of villages away to transfer to my class - which will make 6 children in my class alone who have made that jump.

Parents who have already transferred their children seem to say 'thank you', and 'wow' and 'we can't believe the change in our child' rather a lot, along with 'well, we were told by the school we were leaving that our DC would be well ahead of your children because of the different type of school, but actually we have found that they are rather behind'.

None of the children who have moved are children with SEN, so it's not just that we are 'good for SEN children'. However, schools which really care about SEN provision are IME schools which care passionately about EVERY child and that is a really positive thing.

Not having read any of the other posts.... It depends what you really mean by "relatively poor." Some people go to lunatic extremes to get their children into the "right" school in an area where, frankly, there's not much wrong with any of the schools, either in terms of teaching or in terms of parents and children...

Thanks for you posts.

teacher, that's an interesting point about the relationship bt SEN provision and caring for each child. You must be v proud of your school.

rabbit you are probably right. In our case there is nothing wrong with either. It's only a case of the parents being from very different walks of life compared to each other.

adversecamber (like the name btw), there seems to be a theme of passionate school staff in disadvantage areas. I guess that makes sense

Depends on where you are starting from... if you are fairly affluent, middle class with professional friends and relatives and you do lots of extra curricular, then the poorer school will give you a good full rounded education where you can mix with kids from all walks of life. If your starting position is not quite so advantageous, then you go for the posh school so that your kids can also mix with kids from all walks of life, ie, the posher kids.

My dd goes to what is probably a posher school. I would imagine the standard of teaching is much the same in most schools, the difference is the facilities paid for by the parents via the PTA. Last year the summer fair alone raised £19,000 which has paid for a new computer suite for the school, amongst other things, the parents are also funding the lollipop lady now that the council has stopped paying for her. These things are not enough to make a decision on a school, but it is something to think about when school budgets are being cut.

Niceweather that IS a good way at looking at it, thank you.

nancy75 £19,000 in one summer fair?! Wow, that would make a difference.

The funny thing is, it's the larger school that has better facilities. But I can imagine that the smaller school would raise considerably more via the PTA.