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‘Posher’ versus ‘poorer’ school – what’s the real difference?

324 replies

stickygotstuck · 22/10/2012 13:58

A bit long, sorry.

Please feel free to be very candid about this, I am being! I am forrin and my perception/hang ups about class/social advantage are different to DH's (or the majority of the population for that matter).

My DD will start primary school next September. So far, we have seen two state schools. Both are in our catchment, although one of them is very small and oversubscribed (we are talking 70 vs. 170-ish pupils) The larger school has a Good Ofsted, so does the small school. The larger school is in our relatively 'poor' (if you like more 'working class') village, whereas the small school is in the more affluent village next door. When I have spoken to parents asking for advice I can't shake the feeling that there is a certain snobbery towards the larger, 'poorer' school, and I am not sure that it's actually a better school.

We like both schools, but they are totally different and we can't decide our order of preference.

I guess my question is, would we be missing a trick by not pushing for the small school? Is there some sort of 'social advantage' to be gained for DD? (also could it even influence whether she gets a place in the oversubscribed local state grammar later on?). We are not the type to engage in convoluted social dilly-dallying for personal gain, but we are not so naive that we think it does not exist (we are just useless at it!) and we are aware that it's not all about numbers and academic ability.

OP posts:
Xenia · 18/11/2012 15:04

It is in reverse though. YOu look at destination of leavers and schools like Haberdashers and North London C if you can get them into the junior part more likely they will pass at 11 to the seniors. So you might pick Westmkinster Under school if you want a boy to go on to Westminster itself at 13 etc etc or you pick locally which private prep gets the most children into the private secondary (or state secondary) on the top 20 list.

CecilyP · 18/11/2012 17:26

But many of those top performing schools at A level take in a large cohort of new pupils at 6th form. Pupils who have all done exceptionally well in GCSE at other schools. I don't know if Habs and NLC fit into that category and I am not sure if I can be bothered to find out.

Xenia · 18/11/2012 19:00

Not really. I did once do a mock interview in the sixth form with a girl who had moved from a Jewish school at sixth form to my daughter's but it really isn't very many although I agree that a good few schools do have new pupils in the sixth form or boys' school allow girls in the 6th to get their exam results better.

Good table on which schools are best for university entrance:
public.tableausoftware.com/views/TopEnglishSchoolsST30UniDestinations2007-2009/SchoolUniTrends2007-2009

MordionAgenos · 18/11/2012 22:55

@Rabbit APMF, the financial world is like a massive closed shop when it comes to its behaviour and pay. Nobody outside that world appears to have any control over how it behaves

I suppose it would be possible to be more wrong. But you'd have to invoke the involvement of aliens or similar(lizards?) Wink Grin

rabbitstew · 18/11/2012 23:05

Then those who did have any control over it while I was working there appeared mainly to listen to what they were told should be the case and then agree with it... I'm sure teachers would love that degree of lack of control... Grin

rabbitstew · 18/11/2012 23:08

It is incredible quite how much misselling, misinterpretation of obvious intention and arm twisting can go on whilst one is "highly regulated and controlled."

rabbitstew · 18/11/2012 23:10

Particularly if one has huge amounts of money at ones disposal.

rabbitstew · 18/11/2012 23:16

But then I worked at the end of the spectrum which dealt happily with very dodgy overseas countries... and quite a few years ago, now Grin

MordionAgenos · 18/11/2012 23:16

@rabbit You didn't ask me whether I thought the regulation was effective Grin (the answer is, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't). But your statement that nobody outside that world has any control has not been true for many years (I don't know when you jacked in your career, maybe it was before we all became the playthings of the French ). But was it before Maxwell?

rabbitstew · 18/11/2012 23:20

No, not before Maxwell... but I view ineffective regulation and an inability to control a powerful body of people as more or less the same thing. However much you regulate, some entities just continue to find ways to achieve exactly what they want, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks of it and regardless of the fact that they are continuing to do what someone has tried to stop them doing and they know it.

rabbitstew · 18/11/2012 23:24

Although from the entity's point of view, I can see that the "unnecessary red tape" to be got around is very irksome, expensive to get around and doesn't actually make a difference, or if it does, it isn't at the expense of the entity at the end of the day, but at everyone else's expense, instead.

rabbitstew · 18/11/2012 23:27

Pensions are a very expensive mess...

MordionAgenos · 18/11/2012 23:33

We haven't yet found the limits of man's ingenuity, certainly. But those seeking to find and camp on those perimeters are, these days, from the outside (and often, France) not from within that world, which was the point I was taking issue with. However I guess there is an argument to be had as to whether becoming part of the oversight, under the flag of 'public interest' automatically conscripts you to the darkside. There is, I know, a lot of academic research being done on this very subject. Are Tom Wolfe's 'masters of the universe' also a little bit Derren Brown on the side? Does anything more than the most innocent and brief contact with them inevitably lead to corruption?

rabbitstew · 18/11/2012 23:37

Well, I felt corrupted!

MordionAgenos · 18/11/2012 23:45

No wonder you are bitter then. :(

MordionAgenos · 18/11/2012 23:47

I imagine most people who actually understand about pensions (it looks like you might from your post above) are bitter, though - I certainly am. And I'm too young to have lost money as a result of the post maxwell Armageddon.

rabbitstew · 19/11/2012 00:00

It is a bit Sad. Still, it's entirely my fault for choosing the area of work that I did on qualification - there were plenty of other types of work I could have done much more happily without leaving the same taste in my mouth. Why I didn't just do litigation, I don't know!

stickygotstuck · 19/11/2012 00:21

Sorry, I haven't been here for a while. Didn't realise peope were still posting.

For the original purpose of the thread I shall ignore the v interesting discussion bt Xenia, rabbitstew & APFM (although the commen about Xenia being part of the Mtrix did make me chuckle! [Big grin].

Still haven't decided, but I am less inclined to go for the "posher" school. I think it's a bit too religious for my liking. Apart from that, I am concerned about the smaller numbers now and the reported cliqueyness.

OP posts:
MrsJamin · 19/11/2012 07:10

I think you need to try to talk to more parents from the posher school - things like cliqueyness and religiousness are subjective and parents may say different things. It depends how rough the non-posh school is - whether it is just pretty standard or the depths or depravity. Can you go to their christmas fairs - it's a good indication of community cohesiveness and behaviour of the children when not sitting on the carpet when school visitors are shown around?

stickygotstuck · 19/11/2012 08:13

MrsJamin, the "poorer" school is not that rough, really, it's all relative. The Christmas fairs sound like an excellent idea, thanks!

OP posts:
Blu · 19/11/2012 17:15

We live in S London and DS went to an inner city community primary (Outstanding ofsted).

A one-form entry school, so about the size of your bigger one. However, I still noticed that bigger schools had more of a choice of extra curricular and after-school activities. Bigger schools often have more capacity for teacher training and professional development and to take advantage of partnership projects with theatres or museums etc.

Small schools and small classes can be a nightmare if the mix in terms of friends doesn't work out and someone has a falling out (and they do, especially girls).

The atmosphere in DS's school was great, the range of influences was great, lots of people with different skills contributing to school events, and as for all the stats about poverty and educational attanment and who goes to top Unis, the 2 truly extraordinarily clever and high achieving kids in DS's class were both from refugee families. Schools get a premium payment for students on FSM and often use these very well to build the capacity of what is on offer in a school.

I would also favour a school within walking distance if possible. It adds to the quality of life no end to be able to walk to school in a few monutes and to give them the independence to start walking alone from about 8 or 9. Also MUCH better, IME, to have friends on your doorstep.

Xenia · 20/11/2012 07:50

From today's paper:

"A few private schools educated one in eight of the most prominent people in Britain, according to research that will fuel debate on social inequality.

Only ten schools produced 12 per cent of the country?s most senior businessmen, politicians, diplomats and leaders of the professions.

Eton College accounted for 4 per cent of them, including David Cameron and Justin Welby, the next Archbishop of Canterbury.

The figures were compiled by the Sutton Trust, an education charity, to mark its 15th anniversary. It analysed the school backgrounds of 7,637 people whose birthdays were listed last year in the Register pages of The Times and other newspapers.

Nearly 80 per cent of the people who effectively run Britain attended fee-charging or selective schools: 44 per cent were educated at private schools, 8 per cent went to former direct-grant schools ? fee-paying establishments with places funded by the state ? and 27 per cent attended grammar schools.

On average only 7 per cent of children are educated at private schools, which drops to 6.5 per cent if overseas pupils boarding in Britain are omitted.

In ten professions or careers more than half of the most prominent figures were privately educated. They include national or local government (68 per cent), law (63 per cent), senior armed forces (60 per cent) and business (59 per cent).

The field with the fewest privately educated leaders was the police, with only 13 per cent of chief constables and other senior officers. Fifty seven per cent of top police officers attended grammar schools.

Only 10 per cent of the elite attended comprehensives, including Daniel Craig, the actor, and Robert Peston, the BBC journalist, while 1 per cent went to non-selective secondary modern schools. Among these were the actor Colin Firth and Sir Steve Redgrave, the Olympic rowing champion.

The study also looked at higher education. Of 8,112 people in Britain?s elite for whom details were found, almost a third (31 per cent) attended Oxford or Cambridge. A further 20 per cent were graduates of the next 30 most selective British universities. However, 22 per cent of public figures did not attend university.

The highest proportion of Oxbridge graduates were in the diplomatic service (62 per cent), law (58 per cent) and the Civil Service (55 per cent). The careers with fewest Oxbridge graduates were pop music (1 per cent), sport (8 per cent), the police (11 per cent) and the Armed Forces (12 per cent).

Many of the public figures whose details were analysed were educated before the 1970s, when the majority of England?s grammar schools were abolished. The actors Ray Winstone and Emma Thompson, Martin O?Neill, the Sunderland Football Club manager, and Sir Paul McCartney and Sir Mick Jagger are all former grammar school pupils.

The ten private schools with the highest number of ex-pupils to achieve national prominence are Eton, Winchester, Charterhouse, Rugby, Westminster, Marlborough, Dulwich, Harrow, St Paul?s Boys? School and Wellington College.

Of more than 100 schools that contributed most to Britain?s elite, two are comprehensives: Haverstock School in Chalk Farm, North London, attended by Ed and David Miliband, and Holland Park in Kensington, where Tony Benn sent his four children. The top grammar school, with 17 former pupils among the country?s leaders, was Watford Grammar, Hertfordshire, which is now a comprehensive.

Michael Gove, the Education Secretary, told a conference in May hosted by Brighton College that the disproportionate success of people who were privately educated was ?morally indefensible?.

More detailed figures can be found here

The great and the good, and the others

The names that appear each day in The Times?s birthdays list are chosen by the Editor of the Register and his colleagues from a large database of birthdays (Fiona Wilson writes.) The obviously distinguished still predominate but we offer a once-inconceivable mix of backgrounds, ages and professions.

Last month the published list had an average of 17 names a day.

There are sometimes complaints when someone who has been in the list one year is left out the following year.

The convention until as recently as the late 1990s had been that, like Who?s Who or the House of Lords, once in, you were in for life; new names were added only when an obituary marked a vacancy.

But with space at a premium, a more varied world to reflect, it seems preferable to ring the changes and hope that omission one year may mean inclusion the next."

rabbitstew · 20/11/2012 09:17

Not sure of the point of looking at people who were educated prior to the abolition of the majority of grammar schools? How does that give us a clear picture? Surely it just harks back to what has been the past for quite some time and indicates that we don't want to go back to that situation unless we are happy with the same groups of people getting all the power????? Other than that, it indicates that power, wealth and success tend to breed power, wealth and success, which is something we all knew already. If you really want to run the country, you either have to be a spectacularly driven person, or you have to have gone to the "right" school and come from the right background... And the top public schools have a track record (going back centuries) of encouraging their pupils to want and expect to be leaders, which I think has far, far more to do with it than academic results. Of the 7% who are privately educated, I'm quite certain you will find a FAR greater proportion of them wanting positions of power than you will of the 93% who are not privately educated.

Blu · 20/11/2012 09:29

The OP can't send her dd to Eton.
And oh, look, most of the prominent people are men. So while we're all busy elbowing our way into the status quo of what launched the current middle aged prominent people, what do we do about daughters? have them ajusted? make sure we don't have them?

MordionAgenos · 20/11/2012 09:58

I'm hazy as to how Martin O'Neil is running the country. Please explain.

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