Private education - a waste of money, for arseholes?

[Pooella]

There's a certain irony in this title in that my DCs are both privately educated (both primary age)

And I apologise also for what must be the umpteenth rehash of the 'private vs. state' debate.

That said, what do you think?

I was thinking this having taken my DD to a playground near a state primary school. More community because the children tend to be local.

OTOH I shuddered a little when a couple of 'rough' kids came into the playground (about 9 or 10, swearing, etc.)

Though diverse ethnically the social profile of parents at private is very homogenous - if you're not a middle class, skiing at Christmas, type, you don't fit in.

We are quite well-off, about £150k/year net, but even so I'm conscious that senior education for 2 DCs is about a quarter-of-a-million. It is a little hard to see the value in that you can buy a whole set of after-school activities for about £1k/year (music, ballet, drama, sports, whatever you want), and then for bright children GCSEs and A Levels are not much of a challenge. (I went to a comprehensive school (albeit a rather leafy one) and got As and A*s in everything and then Cambridge, so hard to see what benefit I would have received from private.)

Outcomes so far from private? Posh accent, good behaviour, good levels of academic progress. But, we don't 'fit' in to the prep school parental mould, so not much social interaction for the DCs outside school (compounded with the greater distances to school), which is a shame.

My old school (now) gets about 80% A-C, so it's not exactly Stabton Comprehensive, but I'm not sure if the 50-60%-A-C-type places are necessarily mediocre (as in, if you've got the option to pay for it, as we do, then you'd be mad not to), or what.

There are some independent schools known for being for the 'nice but dim', but they still seem to get 80%+ on their GCSEs, and assuming the intake at these places is not up to the standard of the average comprehensive (which seems likely, unless you believe that being able to afford school fees means your kids are brainy), then they are presumably delivering better outcomes. But whether that is because the parents are more motivated, or because the school is better is not clear? Perhaps the expectations on the lower sets in comprehensives are not high enough? Or are they just too many kids/parents there that don't give a shit?

So is it in fact the nice-but-dim kids that get the value from private, where they will be coached to an inch of their lives to get them up to GCSE/A Level standard, whereas the brainy ones would get their A*s (almost) anywhere and might as well just go to the local comp and save £100k, and there will be plenty of motivated top set kids there to mingle with.

TOSN the sort of people who can cheerfully pay £33 000+ a year per child (Im not talking your average middle class family here) are not gong to roll over and let their DC's schools be abolished, they will carry on taking them, they will make a stand and pay fines (have you any idea how much money these people have?) or if they don't you can imprison them or maybe arrest them as they drop their children off at their boarding houses or how about shoot them and have done with it once and for all or maybe take their children into care, you can erect barbed wire fences and call in the army to stop these schools from teaching children.
But Im labouring under the impression that this is the UK, this is not the West Bank or a tin pot African dictatorship. Stop channelling you frustration at state ed into independent ed, channel it into improving education for the vast majority of children make state ed better then the number will decline Mr and Mrs Middle Class don't really want to pay fees they would happily send their children to the local state school if they felt that it that it was a viable option. Leave the independent sector to the jaw droppingly wealthy these are the people in this globalised society who if they cant find it in the UK will go somewhere else and if necessary create it somewhere else.
Finally I'm afraid your fox hunting analogy is a bad one fox's are fortunately still being hunted by hound and killed.

I disagree very profoundly with the idea that private schools do not benefit state schools.

The private school sector is hugely innovative, and that innovation does infiltrate the state sector and improve the quality of our DCs' education. Sadly, not right across the board.

For the love of god, stop with the barbed wire and tanks and guns stuff every time!

I'm also not actually frustrated at state education. Worried about some of the things Gove might do to it, yes, but I don't think I've ever said I think it's no good.

Bonsoir - if the private sector is very innovative, it also has exceptionally poor marketing. Lots of people want their children privately educated because they view it as a means of getting a more "traditional" education, not because they view it as innovative in any shape or form. Or they view it as something that bears no resemblance to anything mere mortals will ever get, because that would require colossal amounts of money to get them the state of the art facilities, choices of every imaginable subject, teaching staff that would laugh at the thought of state sector wages, etc.

Can you give an example of such innovation, and where it has filtered through, Bonsoir?

The private school sector is hugely innovative, and that innovation does infiltrate the state sector and improve the quality of our DCs' education

I would say it is - or has been as I'm not currently involved in maintained education - the other way around: the maintained sector does innovation (but not always properly trialled) well, but the private sector has the luxury of sufficient resources and independence to take the best of that innovation and use it.

Apologies for not reading the thread in its entirety but noticed that one of the earlier posters suggested the thing to do was to look at all the schools in the local area and then send them to the one they thought was best for their child, whether this be private or state.

To me, this demonstrates how out of touch some parents are if they believe that a majority of the population have this option. For most of us, our only option is to send our child to the school the LA allocates, it's either that or home ed.

rabbitstew - I don't agree that people purchase private education because it is more traditional. Quite the contrary: most people purchase private education because they believe, quite rightly, that it is the best way to broaden their children's opportunities for tomorrow's world. If that includes some of the best features of education drawn from the past, so be it.

If you want to understand innovation in private schools, you really need to delve deep (innovation is not something superficial). The easiest way to start your research, apart from visiting schools directly, is to take a look at the text books that are designed outside the scope of the NC.

take a look at the text books that are designed outside the scope of the NC.

Do you have any specific titles or publishers in mind?

On my bookshelf behind me I have a stack of books by Galore Park, I have masses of Jelly & Bean readers and the Apples & Pears spelling books. But there are loads more!

aprons
If that is directed at me as I certainly made a comment about pick the best option it was a comment to an OP whose children are already in private education therefore I know the OP can afford this choice because they already do. Context is everything!

I fully accept that most people (including my own siblings) could not afford private education.

Bonsoir, Thanks. I wouldn't have thought to call Galore Park, the only ones I am properly familiar with, as innovative though?

I don't really separate innovation into different sectors as I think they overlap, but I still think my comment above stands. I also heard the same comment made once by the Head of a well known girls' school where I was at interview for a HOD job. I was the only state school employee there and was listening to my fellow applicants discuss the terrible things that were said to be going on in the state system. It certainly stopped them.

If I compare the Galore Park books I have behind me to the books my DD gets from school (both English NC and French NC) they are highly innovative. But you need to work with them for a while to understand why, I think. They are so much better at building deep and secure knowledge than other text books.

I'm not sure I see Galore Park as innovation???? What's so innovative about it? And the other resources are available and appropriate for use in state schools, anyway, aren't they? State schools aren't obliged to use set textbooks or teaching methods for everything, you know - they have never been obliged to rely on the civil service to make up all their textbooks for them...

... and nor do you need the existence of private schools to make up a new reading scheme or method for learning to spell.

I can imagine you might have some poor NC books. There is a lot of dross published in the UK. I agree Galore Park are very convenient, thorough and easy to work through at home. They are certainly not innovative in English though. And a highly regarded maths specialist (not my subject) whom I asked to use a GP Maths book to do some work with my DC , described it as 'very boring'. I wish I'd asked why now.

oh jabed do you really think that state school parents (and teachers) dont encourage their children to do their best??

What parents do I cannot say. I do know working in state schools that there is an ethos of under achievement fuelled by "school is not cool"

Well, I returned two hours ago from my first, prep school open day. As a state educated child, and preKids a state school educator, it was an eye opener. Especially the scheme led and very unimaginative preprep. In comparison to the state school classrooms I taught in, and that my son is taught in now, the technological facilities were lacking. Strikes me that the prep school parents didn't want innovation, they want a good solid grounding in the basics and the classics.

All I see you are paying for is small classes (half the size of his current primary school) and the right sort of classmates, and some extra curricular stuff. I do appreciate that, and think that sometimes innovation and national curriculum initiatives get in the way of state school teaching. But really, my son's current class teacher is head and shoulders above the preprep woman I saw today. I really must tell her that!

I am so pleased I looked around. I don't think prep is ruled out (OH has his heart set on a public school education for DS) but it will certainly be delayed, probably until yr5. And yes, I met some very polite and lovely parents today, products of public education themselves, who did seem a little dim.

Strikes me that the prep school parents didn't want innovation, they want a good solid grounding in the basics and the classics

I think that pretty well sums it up for me. I dont want edutainment. I want my child educated.

I could add in my own feeling that I dont want change and innovation either, I want a level of stability and tradition. I am not against change, I am against change for changes sake.

There are many other things I dislike about state schools so I guess my decision is not for private schools but against state ones. That is the wht abolishing private education nwill not improve state education. If I couldnt pay for a foos school of my choice formy DS I would not be campaigning for a better state system but looking around for another alternative. I am already using HE.

The state system is broken and I suspect now beyond repair. Thats how I feel about it anyway.

captain barnacle - I know a number of people ( or maybe one?) have cited wrap around care and after school clubs as a reason for choosing an independent but they are both low on my list. So low I dont even consider them.

captain
Private school parents rightly get slated for judging all state schools based on experience of one school. I assume you won't be judging all private schools on your experience of one school in the sector either?

I am a private school parent but I am probably not so very polite and lovely (maybe because of my state education) but I do have post grad qualifications as do quite a few of the parents at my sons' prep. Perhaps the school you were looking at isn't totally representative of the sector as a whole?

I went to view some inner city state secondaries last week with my ds2, what struck me was how much they had copied from the independent schools since I went here with ds2 2 years ago. From the moment I step through the door there was a slick marketing campaign, nice refreshments, goody bag, the beribboned flannel blazers, the multitude of clubs, the prefect system, the house system, head boy and girl, increase in competitive sports, the Oxbridge grooming classes.

captain barnacle i agree. We kept our two in the vilage state primary until they were ten for this reason. The reception-year two classes in particular were excellent and my two could not have done better. I also liked the social and ability mix. By ten, my two were getting restless and that is when we moved them both.

I think there are good and bad schools in both sectors. Perhaps the private sector offers more innovation in terms of the delivery of the subject matter.
I do think that the OP is wrong in the assumption that the after school activities mentioned would only cost £1k.
This might be possible if all of these were offered and to a good enough standard, by state provision. However, privately you'd be looking at at least double this/ maybe 3x as much.
I think the only way you can truely have innovative, imaginative and non nc topics is to find your own resources and teach them yourself. Otherwise your dc are confined to the system and teaching methods of the school, private or state.