will a normal child do well anywhere?

[thepowerofvoodoo]

What is better about private schools? i've read through lots of threads on here about private schools and know a lot of people "in real life" who send their kids to private schools and wouldn't consider anything different. i suppose i look at it from a different angle as i went to bog standard state schools (many, as my parents moved a lot), a mixed comp and then did a degree at oxford. so i suppose i see it as "it didn't stop me doing well" and that my parents (not that they could have paid) would have just wasted their money. i suppose i also believe a child should want to do well for themselves and motivate themselves rather than be artificially pushed.
i look at the area i live in and ALL the primary schools are OK - there's none in special measures or anything, so will be sending my nearly 4 year old to whichever he gets into.
Is is just a matter of where the parents went (state or private) the children go? Some of my friends haven't even considered state because they didn't go to state school. I suppose I'm the same because I'm not even considering private because I didn't go.
I just don't see the point of paying for something that is available for free (but then I'm a tight arse). What am I missing?

rabbitstew - why not try visiting the school in school hours? You can tell lots about the ethos of the school and it's teachers by taking a look around while all is in action so to speak. One school I taught had poor behaviour. The first thing an outsider might have noticed was the amount of out-of-class acitivity in lesson time (kids being sent out, disputes resolved in the corridors etc). Have a look and chat with the SEN department - they aren't classroom teachers as such but see everything and have their opinions - ime, they frequently had to bear the brunt of poor behviour. Some of the smartest and friendliest teachers/senior management have been the worst teachers and disciplinarians I've met, so don't be taken in by the talk. Look at the tables and books - respect for these things is a great sign for behaviour in lessons.

Interestingly (or not!) we are trying to decide between state and independent for our DC for next year (into an indie junior but at a natural school break for our DC in the state sector). We are the first from both families to be considering it. And it is hard. We were both state educated and making the leap to independent seems daunting... Like are we not really 'the type' although the school we are looking at doesn't feel like that at all!
I had a 'good' state education and did academically well but like a lot have said I had issues with being hard working and bright which led to insecurity and self esteem issues later on. DH on the other hand went to a shocking state comp and scraped enough a levels to go to Uni but is now very successful... It didn't help that his school taught him the wrong physics a level course! And that his main issue was avoiding being beaten up in the lunch queue.
We are considering independent mainly due to the smaller size of the school and classes, the amazing facilities, and the ethos that succeeding but also enjoying education is important. Both DS are musical and one is sporty too and the opportunities are amazing.
But i still have this nagging doubt that I am not good enough for private! I am sure my kids are tho!!!

Thanks, LeBFG, that's really helpful. Would the SEN department be honest?!...

"But i still have this nagging doubt that I am not good enough for private"
Happypiglet how "good" do you think you have to be? No one is not "good enough" for independent ed. the parents there are still people just like you with the hopes dreams and worries. My DS's prep has a reputation for being very smart and we had some of the wealthiest parents in England but underneath their stately homes moats domestic staff massive cars houses in Belgravia and two or three holiday homes were just normal people worrying about their children, fretting over which was the right senior school and were they going to get their first choice senior school and then pass CE.

THe SEN department were brutally honest with teachers and management, rabbitstew, they often came from non-teaching backgrounds and were more 'normal' for want of a better expression. Obviously, they'll be less frank with parents. Dunno. I guess it's better than questioning ready-primed HoD over behavioural issues. Ask SEN things like 'how do you think the anti-bullying policy is working in the school' and 'do the kids swear a lot'. Things you think may indicate deeper problems. Pupils that are polite to staff are more respectful in general.

As an linked aside, it annoys me that the new HT at my old comp has done a massive PR campaign. The school is now oversubscribed so the worst have been squeazed out and results have got a bit better (cue lots of awards). When I went back to teach there though, the behavioural issues were still going strong, bullying rife, teachers frequently leaving after one year, supply teachers reluctant to work there. You wouldn't have believed it when parents visited however .

Choose a school that is right for your kids, and their interests and abilities. Be honest about what those are. Your child may be an outstanding artist but positively mediocre academic, in which case hours of tutoring to get them into a more academic private or grammar school would be doing them a great disservice. It would put them in an environment where they could never be quite good enough to fit in, and may have their talent overlooked in favour of extra tuition.

Panic, that is a good point.

Am currently deciding for "normal" DS ( mild dyslexia, good at science and maths, loves violin and chess, not keen on sport....is this "normal" btw?! to me it is. Also shy and easily overwhelmed, yet confident and outgoing when he feels secure)..... anyway, deciding between a good state school and a small private. Was considering the selective top notch private too, but panicnotanymore makes a good point which makes me wonder if it is wise to pursue if deepdown I feel he would be out of his depth....

I think a lot depends on the schools that are available. Certainly at some state schools, there's a prevailing sense of bullying those that are clever or who engage in class. Obviously a lot of schools aren't like this, but if the local comprehensive was one with poor results, poor teaching and a child of mine was bright and wanted to learn, then I'd look elsewhere.

Also, a lot of independent schools have facilities that are just beyond the means of state schools. Swimming pools, lacrosse pitches, Fives Courts (well, if you go to Eton), incredible IT infrastructure and design technology, kilns for pottery, metalworks, the option to do a number of languages. Also, things like foreign sports trips, ski trips, music tours - in general independent secondary schools can offer more things like this.

DD has just started an independent school for secondary. However, if I have further DC, I'd probably send them private from primary, since one key thing that state schools don't do is prepare children for 11+ entrance exams, whereas prep schools do. Also, an academic prep school will push pupils to a greater extent, IMO, that a state primary school.

webwiz, I wasn't generalising. I was referring specifically to the school I went to and the ones I have subsequently worked at. This is what they have in common.

I'm not suggesting all private schools are better by default - not at all, but even the outstanding schools locally, according to Ofsted, depress me, and I know several children who have been withdrawn from local well-respected comps because they felt they were prevented from learning because of class disruption.

No xenia yet?

An able child may zone out distractions and work without teacher support. But in the five or seven years that your child is in senior school, do you really want them to be under this kind of pressure? Shouldn't each lesson be genuinely enjoyable?

hello - only just got back to this thread. in answer to a question earlier, it doesn't bother me where people send their children - private or state. i just wonder if i should at least consider private more and stop this idea in my head about children should do it for themselves! i totally understand the thing about bullying, which is interesting. i was lucky at my comprehensive in that although there was some bullying, i was never a target because although i did very well, i am lucky in that i didn't need to work to get results so wasn't seen as a "geek" - in fact, i was often in trouble for not listening / talking etc. there was some of the making fun of geeks going on (not by me!). i suspect this isn't something that happens as much at primary level?
i suspect it's all rather academic for me anyway, as I don't think we could afford it even if we wanted to.

I haven't noticed it going on at primary level, yet, and my ds1 has made it to year 4. He still thinks it's cool to be seen as clever. I'm not as convinced about secondary school, though, as you have an influx of children from all sorts of different schools then, some of which will not have had the same ethos.

OP, I think your idea of the child should do well anywhere is partly to do with you being a girl. Boys are different. I have one of each (at a state primary) and it is definitely the case that boys and girls have a totally different approach to learning and school generally. Girls are more willing to focus on the task at hand and boys are generally much more easily distracted. Both my 2 are bright (DS finished year 5 at level 5C across the board and DD finished year 3 at level 4A) but the difference is that DD will do the work whatever, while DS needs more encouragement. If left to his own devices, his teacher says he will always do exactly what is asked and no more.

I went to private school from 5-18, worked hard, was pushed hard, and went to Cambridge. Maybe I would have done well anyway. Maybe my DD would if staying in state. But the power of peer pressure in teenage years would certainly drag DS' achievement down. He is already mocked at school for being "a swot" at age 10. Already that makes him not want to try his best.

So I think that you have to take the gender difference into account.

I have known state educated children who loved their school experience and state educated children who hated theirs. I have known privately educated children who loved their school experience and privately educated children who hated theirs.

It is a combination of so many factors: the school itself (as an individual institution rather than as part of a certain sector), the academic ability of the child, the personality of the child, the personality of whoever else happens to be in the class at that time.

Some things you have to accept you cannot foresee. When dd was 4, I thought she was a "normal" child: 4 years later she was a disabled child with strong pastoral needs. These days I would never consider a school that did not have a good reputation for supporting its weakest members, because I know how quickly the "normal" child can turn into the child with special needs.

Dd is state educated. Were it not for her poor health, there would be no question of her having to "do it for herself": her school offers a good level of education, with plenty of opportunities of enrichment, and there are enough other pupils with varied interests and ambitions to make her feel this is quite normal.

All the schools she has attended have had robust anti-bullying schemes, and there has been very little picking on clever children. It is a little known fact that any working class and lower middle class families do actually admire hard work and good manners: they want their children to get on and encourage them to believe that this is a good thing.

I'd say visit the schools and speak to people other than the head. A SENCO or pastoral support officer is often a good person to talk to to find out if things are really like in the glossy brochure.

Mexxo's "mocked for being a swot" says it all. This is so prevalent. Why on earth should a hardworking child put up with that negative pressure to underachieve? I hear it all the time. I so loathe that mediocre mindset and will do everything in my power to ensure my children don't encounter it.

To show the difference in attitudes, look at how sporty children are treated by peers and teachers. At our primary, sporty children win trophys and prizes. They have their photos taken and sent to local newspapers. The whole school applauds them. Academic ability is shoved under the table. Getting 5s in Yr 4?Got into a super-selective? Well don't boast. Keep quiet about it. Even the teachers seem to disapprove.

Suppose the academic kids held the power and the sporty kids were constantly sneered at. Suppose the unfit ones sat down on the pitch and snatched the ball and wrecked each game. Would the sporty children be able to thrive in that environment? Would they look forward to games lessons and matches? Suppose the aim of the game was to lose to the other side, because that was the cool thing to do. Drop the ball, miss the goal. You'll be one of us if you do. Supposed they were jeered at every day for being all brawn no brain or... the insults aren't there. They don't exist. Sport is revered in state schools. Which is good. It's fine. It's revered in private schools too. If equal prestige and respect were given by their peers to the bright hardworking children in state schools, I'd be happy to send my DC to one.

Is sport revered in state schools? I hadn't noticed particularly. I think you are doing that generalising thing again racingheart

That's an interesting point you make Mexxo. I was always shocked at one school I worked at - I taught top set science and two hours out of every week half the boys disappeared to do GNVQ car maintenance off-site. Obviously a whole lot cooler than achieving in a poncey topic like science

Whereabouts do you live racingheart - you seem to have some unusual experiences - my DS is massively sporty, I was preening myself at the prize giving waiting for his award .............. which he got for an academic subject .

I know this is going to be unpopular but all the teachers I have spoken to (both state & independent) say that children will thrive when their parents take an active part in their school and extra-curricular life - whether or not you pay for their education.

I have friends who have appealed to get their children into the 'best' local school, once they are there the same parents have completely lost interest in their education and 'left them to get on with it' (and no, not becuase they didn't have the time to support the school).

racingheart - I think your children go to a different state school from the ones used by the mums of sporty children who never get to win a prize, even on sports day .

Have you looked at the schools OP or just online at the ofsted.

I'd look at the states that your DC stands a chance of getting into and also a private or two nearby.

If your DC will get into a good state school you like then agree why would you pay.

I also disagree about the sports wins all prizes comment, I know 2 olympians who were pulled out of state schools for being bullied and someone who is also at nearly olympic standard who gets similar.

On a more day to day basis, having a number of children all of different sport prowess, I haven't noticed any interest on behalf of the school in their sporting achievements or anyone else's for that matter.

I still think it depends so much on individual schools.

My niece went to state secondary (not in London), loved it, was never bullied, was clever and cool both, and went to Oxford - where she knew how to work independently, and was astounded by some of her peers who had no idea how to live, let alone work.

OTOH, I know people who had bad times at their state secondaries.

My sister and I both went to the same indie secondary (and indie primary), and she did very well whereas I got away with underachieving, had dreadful lack of pastoral care during a very difficult period, and witnessed plenty of bullying - it didn't involve knives, to be fair, but it still cut deep for the person concerned.

It HAS to depend so much on individual kids, and individual schools, no?

And at my dds' state primary, academic success is definitely celebrated - along with creative, sporting, or any other outstanding achievement. The other local primaries are very similar in that, I think. I agree with Rabbit - love our local state, no regrets at all, preferred it to the local indies.

But am worrying already about secondary...

OP "i suppose i also believe a child should want to do well for themselves and motivate themselves rather than be artificially pushed."

What would you do if your child was not motivated or who responded to negative pressure to be lazy etc?

What you believe and what happens may be different.

Also- what does "artifically pushed" mean?
It's a very negative way of saying that a child should not be encouraged or supported if they are perhaps coasting or the work is too easy.

There are many bright children who are lazy just as there are not so bright children who work their socks off.

You seem to be starting yet another thread on private v state. No?