Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Flip

1 2 3 4

Original poster

Why do non religious schools sing about Jesus and God?

99 replies

DairyNips · 07/09/2012 18:01

This is a genuine question. My ds1 has just started school in a lovely primary school. I went along to the welcome assembly today as the headmistress was talking about it being a lovely school full of love for each other and the love of God. When I have attended assembly's in the past (ds went to nursery there), the children have also been singing songs about Jesus and how great he is etc.
Now, it was the same when I was at school but I just wonder why it is this way? Why do non religious schools choose to sing about any particular belief system? Isn't it a bit biased? Also, doesn't it make an assumption on behalf of the children that they all believe in God/Jesus etc?
Personally, I went to Sunday school yet never actually chose to do that.. I now don't follow any religion, I have my own beliefs about certain things but that's as far as it goes.

I just think children should be allowed to make up their own minds without being made to sing about one religion in particular. Btw I'm totally up for children being taught about all religions and I think this is important.

Any thoughts on this?

OP posts:

aufaniae · 08/09/2012 08:04

"I can never understand why people think there are non religious schools unless they didn't grow up in the UK."

Because some schools interpret the requirement so that the "act of worship" required is not obviously Christian. Our local school, for example, asks the infants to think about "wonder and awe" and they discuss questions of morality in an age appropriate way. No mention whatsoever of Jesus or God in the context of worship.

And also because some of us are old enough to have gone to school before the national curriculum! I never sung a hymn nor was ever asked to join in a prayer in my state primary or secondary school in London.

CaseyShraeger · 08/09/2012 08:14

So anyone who doesn't agree with every single one of a country's laws should leave the country rather than express mild dissatisfaction or join in a lawful and democratic campaign to change the law? Wow, that's an extreme perspective.

I'm glad that attitude didn't prevail in previous years. Abolition of slavery? I Meh, and there aren't many slaves in this country anyway and slaves have it far worse in many other countries. If you don't like it, leave the country. Votes for women? Hey, in this country we now allow women to own property, which is more generous than most countries. The If you aren't happy with that, leave the country. Still, as we'd never be changing any laws ever again we'd be able to slim down Parliament quite considerably.

Sure, this particular law isn't likely to be changed any time soon, if ever. But suggesting that anyone who says "Personally I'd support a change in the law" should leave the country is a bit... odd.

CaseyShraeger · 08/09/2012 08:19

aufainie, it's not a national curriculum thing. The legal provision has been in place way, way before that.

Himalaya · 08/09/2012 08:19

Jabed - if you don't like compulsory worship in schools then leave the country?!?!

It's hardly a proportionate response.

"if you don't like it then leave the country" is an all purpose answer to any kind of policy discussion, which adds precisely nothing. In fact why bother having parliament, voting, or any kind of policy reform ever? Just keep things exactly as they are and those who don't like it can leave.

PeggyCarter · 08/09/2012 08:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cartoonjane · 08/09/2012 08:27

As an absolute aetheist I am glad that my daughter hears about religion at school because I want her to think about it for herself and without the exposure at school she wouldn't come across much religion except as rather coldly described by me. Also I think religion, and Christianity in particular, has massive cultural significance that I want her to be in tune with. Despite my aetheism I would say I am a " cultural Christian" eg I celebrate Christmas, I appreciate the beauty of church buildings and music and I pick up on ( some) biblical references which our culture is littered with.

picnicbasketcase · 08/09/2012 08:28

Visions of Taffin shouting 'WELL MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HEEEERE'

Ahem. I'm not exactly thrilled that my atheist DC have to sing religious songs in assembly but haven't ever considered asking for them to be removed from it. I've just placed it under the heading of 'school will sometimes get you to do activities you wouldn't choose yourself, but make the best of it'. Or something.

Lilithmoon · 08/09/2012 08:33

Wow Jabed out of proportion and very rude to suggest people leave the country. Do you suggest that to everyone you don't agree with it or just us immoral atheists?

aufaniae · 08/09/2012 08:39

CaseyShraeger that's interesting, I guess my schools just ignored the law then!

However my post was in response to exoticfruits who said "I can never understand why people think there are non religious schools unless they didn't grow up in the UK."

The answer to that is that many of us attended schools in the UK which never did collective acts of worship, prayer, hymns or anything else which was Christian.

conorsrockers · 08/09/2012 08:39

Because it's tradition? It's what our mothers and fathers did before us - we all know the hymns etc... why fix it if it's not broken? No-one is forcing anything on anyone. I fully expect my children to learn about God and Christianity as they were born in a christian country (I also expect them to learn about other faiths), and if we moved to another country that was predominantly a different faith I would expect them to be joining in that worship every morning at school. Although I am not massively religious, I think it's important to have a faith and learn that moral structure from somewhere (other than your parents), and I think assembly is a good way to do it. And having suffered many years of hour long cathedral services every morning in hat and gloves when I was at school, I think 20 mins in the hall to sing a couple of songs and hear a bible story (maybe) is getting off lightly. Why is everyone so desperate to force their 'religious angst' on their kids - they go to school to learn, I can't imagine they care one way or the other about what religion they are praying to! It just comes across as this 'you can't make me do what I don't want to do' attitude which is being passed on to the kids about anything and everything just for the sake of it . The history of slaves and women's rights is a million miles away from an insignificant ritual that has taken place for thousands of years that hurts no-one. Its not immoral, unkind or illegal, so I don't get what the fuss is about.

exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 08:43

It is nothing to do with the National Curriculum.

Some schools might get away with it but they are actually breaking the law. There are provisions if the majority of pupils are are different religion i.e. Muslim but they have to go through the correct channels.
The secular society sets it out here Probably clearer with Humanist society especially with applying through SACRE for exemption.
I have been to more assemblies than normal and most primary schools stick to the law. They are inclined to say before a prayer-'if you want to make this a prayer say amen at the end' but I doubt whether the average 5 yr old understands the distinction. I suspect that many DCs are like mine and never mention it-I could assume that mine had never had assemblies if I didn't know better i.e. sat through them as a supply teacher.
Secondary schools can get around it through lack of space.

exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 08:44

And I am old enough to have been a teacher before the National Curriculum!

exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 08:48

I don't think there is anything quite so misunderstood in schools. This type of thread appears every few months. It will come again at Christmas and Easter is a peak time-especially the crucifixion. I think that some people have DCs go right through the system without picking up on it at all!

PeggyCarter · 08/09/2012 08:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

aufaniae · 08/09/2012 09:10

"It's what our mothers and fathers did before us - we all know the hymns etc... "

Not all of us! I didn't learn any hymns as a child.

My son is a fourth generation atheist!

exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 09:12

If people were to actively do something about it then there would be changes-I doubt that most do more than moan. The solution is simple-you go around the school playground and get people to withdraw their DCs from assembly, so that the majority don't go in. (you have the right to withdraw your DC) I suspect that you wouldn't get very far. I like the idea that my DCs sing 'we plough the fields and scatter' when their parents, grandparents and great grandparents etc would have sung the same hymn in October.
There is also no knowing what your DC will believe, or not believe, in the future. The one thing for certain is that they will make up their own mind.

aufaniae · 08/09/2012 09:14

exoticfruits point taken about the National Curriculum, but I was just trying addressing your surprise that someone from the UK wouldn't realise all schools are religious.

I would imagine many people who went to inner London schools in the 80s and 90s didn't get any kind of religion imposed on them.

conorsrockers · 08/09/2012 09:14

Fair enough!

exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 09:14

My son is a fourth generation atheist!

He is the DS of a third generation atheist-you can guess that he might continue it -but you can't know. He is completely free to make up his own mind.

exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 09:17

I can't speak for inner London but I can make a fair bet that anyone in a rural state primary (or small town) had daily assemblies. As a supply teacher I have been to far too many to count, in all sorts and sizes of school, but not London.

Lilithmoon · 08/09/2012 09:17

Actually I'm not sure about this 'you have to learn your morals from somewhere' line that crops up in these types of threads. I don't agree with a lot of the teachings in the bible, I don't live by them and would not raise my child according to them. Likewise the teaching of the modern church.

Himalaya · 08/09/2012 09:22

Exotic - my impression is that before Ofsted the law on compulsory worship was more widely ignored by schools.

I went to an ILEA primary school in the 1970s and we sung a mixture of Xmas carols and seasonal pop songs in December, and did a fairly secular harvest festival and Easter with bunnies and eggs. There was definitely a lot less religion than my DSs get in primary school, where they sing Jesus and god songs regularly and the local vicar is a regular speaker.

I think a lot of it does come down to the head and the demographics of the school. But in general the trend does seem to be more schools doing worship, because of OFSTEd and because igion has reexerted a role in public life.

I think people ARE surprised when they encounter religion in schools because the general assumption is that religious practice is and
should be a personal choice, not something imposed on people as a condition of accessing public services.

exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 09:27

Ofsted will be looking at the spiritual life of the school.
Things were more relaxed in general in 1970's-I doubt if anyone asked or was bothered!
I think that collective worship isn't something that should be undertaken by schools, but that all DCs need RE to understand history, literature, art and current affairs. Also they need information to make up their own minds. I can't think of any adult who says 'I think......... because my mother thinks it'-they generally grow out of that by about 8yrs old.

exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 09:29

It was also pre 1998 Education Act-or even the 1988 one.

HoratiaWinwood · 08/09/2012 09:31

Any of the above could be presented to my dc in assembly, by people whom they're taught to listen to attentively, & if the kids didn't happen to have been brought up to believe in such nonsense, no harm would be done?

This is my concern too. I am a practising, questioning Christian and I do not want unknown school staff who might not even be Christian teaching my child what to believe. I don't even trust my vicar to do that at the moment (raging homophobe).

This thread has reminded me that I wanted to query the school's policy before they get into it - thus far Reception haven't been into assembly.

Fwiw my primary school (late eighties) distinctly didn't sing hymns. We sang 70s classics like Turn, Turn, Turn, Streets of London, Yellow Submarine, etc.

Flip

1 2 3 4