Choice of secondary schools - what questions to ask?

[GettinTrimmer]

We have to start looking at secondary schools, ds will be in year 6 from Monday he's only just 10, one of the youngest in his year.

We have a choice of 2 schools by reputation one is where people send their dc if they are less academic and more sporty. Also they are better apparently with involving parents. The other has great results and is good if your dc are more academic.

My ds is a fab reader, average in maths & science.

I am not sure where would be best for him; did anybody when visiting a secondary school just have a 'feel' for what was right?

We are at exactly the same stage. We also have a choice of two schools, both of which we have a fair chance of getting into.

Questions we are asking:
At what point are students put into ability-based sets and for which subjects?
What languages are offered?
Who gets to do separate sciences at GCSE?
What is the pastoral care system and how do they help new Yr7s settle in?
What clubs are on offer (in our case specifically, what is there in the way of extra-curricular drama and music because those are DD's things and life will be a lot easier if there is decent provision at school)
Where do their students go when they leave? What number do they send to decent universities each year?

Do I like the head-teacher? Do I think I can work with him/her for the next eight years (two DCs)? If the school reflects their personality, will it be a nice place to learn?
Who do I know who has teens/young 20-somethings that have studied at each school? How have they turned out?
What do the loos/dining areas/outdoor areas look like? Would I like to spend the next 7 years of my life hanging around them if I was my daughter?

And in answer to your last question, our problem is that we like the feel for one school but we think the other one will be better for DD in terms of track record at A-level, extra-curriculuar opportunities etc. And the Head of the school where we liked the "feel" was an arrogant ........... who we felt we couldn't really work with. Tricky!

To be honest the question about the HT is a bit irrelevant, you will have very little contact, if any, with the HT of a secondary school. They might anyway move in the next year and so don't make a choice about a school based on the personality of staff as they are not fixed in stone!

cf pastoral care system in ACCK post

you may not need to know right now but ask them if they will be prepared to honour your parental rights to know what is going on in your son's life. not more specific than that. some teachers will keep all sorts of secrets, in a few years time he may say he's gay, get a girl pregnant or be self-harming (just examples of big things you should know about) and some of these left-wing extremista think it's cool to NOT tell you on some trumped up secrecy policy.

you should not have much contact with HT or SLT but ask when they speak to the pupils and for what reasons. in a well disciplined school usually they will only speak to the pupils about a major school related issue or telling-off. they will stay in/around their offices working.

If any are described as "very approachable" or similar such as I have seen in some schools have pupils coming up to them while supervising lunch hour and speaking about all sorts then this may (does not always) mean un-professionality but at the least it implies a school over-ran by liberal ideology and less likely to be strongly structured in favour of academics and discipline.

this way you can find out if the school is pro-parent and pro traditional values without having to ask highly specific questions that they may find "suspicious". (If nothing depended on it I'd ask about Michael Gove- support implies respect for such values- but this would be a high risk strategy I do not recommend as they may go WAY on the defensive with an open political question...)

I would look at what range of subjects the offer, how many at GCSE and how many in alternative qualifications, how they set/stream, how you can contact the school, policy on bullying (and the way they answer a question on bullying), gut feel, how your child feels about the school and why.
I would ignore occasional stories of bullying unless it is an example of well dealt with bullying. Comments against one school from parents who send their school to another (there is a lot of emotion involved in school choice).

A secondary teacher told me to ask a student (if given the chance) if they have a pen on them. He said it was a food indication of attitudes if the students had a pen with them!

Extrospectiv - I#d be quite worried of the SMT spent all their time in their offices, and none walking around the school being involved with the students actually. I like that our secondary head knew that DD2 was DD1s sister on DD2s first day out of 350 new starters (just from her admittedly unusual first name). I like that the SMT are part of the "organising students onto buses at the end of the day" rotas. I like that they chat to students at lunch and breaks. Why does that imply a less disciplined school? There's still plenty of "tuck your shirt in and sort your tie out" "yes sir, sorry sir" going on (I spend a LOT of time in school as DD has health issues, so I see and hear a lot from sitting in reception )

It is a trend that more traditionalist people will have more boundaries around speaking to the pupil, not one hundred percent cent of the time... And of course some parents will not see this as counter to how things should be, or as a threat to parental authority.

trinity my question about the Head was not so much because I thought I'd have a lot of contact with him/her, but because my experience is that organisations very often reflect the personality of their leader quite strongly. So if I feel that I might have a personality clash with a Head, that would put me off a school. But I do accept that Heads move on, and that would not be my over-riding consideration. (Although the Head of our second choice school is very annoying

I'm also interested in comments about how visible the Head should be to students. In the same school, the Head has a policy of visiting every class every day. To me that feels like a bit too much visibility ... like he doesn't really trust his staff to get on with the job. But other parents love it, because they feel it shows he's right on top of things.

I like cece's question. Should bonus points be awarded if it's a fountain pen?!

My ds will want to go to the school where his friends are going but one priority would be quality of pastoral care (he comes out of school very upset sometimes and worries for Britain). But also we've not seen the best of him academically, I think he'll blossom in secondary school.

Will look at replies with dh, more focus now. Thanks all.

We looked at two schools. One was totally prepared with lots on offer to view, lots of teachers around, a couple approached us and got talking to our daughter, schoolwork displayed everywhere on the walls and the children helping with all polite and well prepared. The other school was totally different, the things you could get involved with with their pupils were going wrong in every room (I know things can go wrong, but it was like the pupils hadn't had chance to practice or be prepared), hardly any rooms had work displayed, sounds snobby but many of the children sounded a bit rough and a couple told us one of the teachers was really horrible.

We didn't go prepared with any questions, but asked things about choice of languages, when they set them for things etc and this also helped us as again one school had all the answers, the other didn't.

If there's anything you'd like to know, do ask, but hopefully you will get a clear view of which one you prefer. Both schools did actually invite us back in school hours to observe, so if feel you want to see one again, hopefully you will be given the opportunity.

Interesting question. Depends on whether the academic school offers a good range of extra-curricular activities and whether (or not) your ds is interested in or good at sport. I wouldn't send a non-sporty ds to a school that had Sport as it's main focus.
You say that your ds is fab reader and average at Maths and Science. This was true for my dd in Y6 and we still chose a more academic school - she has just started Y8. At primary school the SATs levels only cover English, Maths and Science whereas at secondary school they are given levels in every subject. What we found at the end of Y7 was that she was good at subjects such as History, Geography, RE, IT and DT so you could find that your ds is actually interested in other subjects that are covered in more depth at secondary school.
HTH

I'd ask which languages they do, whether they do triple science, as these can impact on career choices later on. Also, if they have strong orchestras, choirs and drama clubs as well as sports teams, so non sporty DC can get involved in group activities.

Although as Trinity says, contact with HT is minimal and staff change, I think it's crucial. The HT really does command the ethos and mood of a school.

Ask about bullying policies. If they say they don't have bullies at their school - red alert, it means they can't be bothered to deal with them IME.

Mainly though, I'd look at the children. One school we went to, the boys were all standing round in groups smiling and chatting, very eager to welcome prospective parents and show them around. They had their arms over each others shoulders, praising each other when they did things well in the displays, and the groups were all racially mixed. At another (more highly thought of) school the boys stood around singly looking louche and bored, or in tight clusters of all white or all Asian groups. That put me off.

Ooh! Look at this:

www.manchester.gov.uk/downloads/download/2681/visiting_secondary_schools-what_to_ask#feedback

(We're going through the same thing - With the added "joy" of the Eleven Plus... Even though we're not in Manchester, these questions look great!)

Ahh well, We'll get there! Good Luck to us all!

That is a fantastic list, MaytheFourth! Going to post it to the other recent thread on this subject :)