Bullying - DS in reception been hit frequently by a SN child

[Eve]

Can anyone give me advice as to what to do and how to talk to DS about this.

He comes home frequently talking about how another cild has been hitting & hurting him. This other boy has SN - not sure what, and is considerably bigger and heavier than my DS. Not sure how well he can be reasoned with.

I have talked to the head and teacher about it, and they are observing the situation and talking to DS about it, but he doesn't like his teacher knowing...don't know if he is embarassed by it.

I can't tell DS to ignore it or hit back...what can I do as I find it very distressing that he should encounter this so frequently, especially in his 1st term at school. I want him to settle and enjoy it and not be put of by the experience.

Well, I'm not very happy about how the things have been going in this thread, and as I'm going on holidays tomorrow I thought that I could just come back in a couple of weeks with another name... but then I thought it better and preffer to thank you all because today I have learned a lot of things. Happy new year.

PS. MariZ don't judge me so easily, you don't know the details, but if it makes you feel better I was the friend that lasted longer.

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robin I know that. But what I'm saying is that the causes are different. It's no good just saying that the child who hits hits because they are aggressive if they have a developmental problem. I think MaryZ's post is very useful and a very good example. Her son would lash out because someone was about to take something he wanted. Now this is "unreasonable" behaviour and of course he shouldn't hit out, but assuming he doesn't have theory of mind at that stage- he wouldn't have known that the other child didn't know that he wanted to pick that item up. So to him- that child would have seemed spiteful even though they were being perfectly reasonable. SO had he just been told off with no explanation you couldn't hope to begin to make his behaviour more socially acceptable. This is what I have been syaing all along. Deal with "bad" behaviours but try and work out why they are happening. Autistic children are generally no more aggressive than there NT peers- providing their environment is safe for them. This means having to think in a totally different way to an NT to see what is going on. Unless you can do that the bad behaviour continues. For example if ds1's school insisted on bare feet for PE, or that he queued with eveyone else, or that he went into assembly, or that he used the toilet with the handdryer on. I can guarantee that someone (an adult) would get punched and hit every day- and I would have a very distressed little boy. Instead they adapt the school environment to suit him and they have a relaxed boy, who runs onto school and gives his LSA cuddles.

These stories sadden me as often it would be fairly easy to stop the child hitting- especially if the SN is developmental (remembering to teall a child of a change is easier that family therapy!) But all too often - especailly if the child is high funcitoning they are told they"should" understand. Would someone tell a child in a wheelchair they "should" be able to walk up a set of stairs?

I do feel for the victim- which is why I get so cross that children aren't given the support- everyone could be happier, and some poor child could stop being lumped around. it may mean moving the child- for example AS kids have been known to belt others becuase they rock on thier chair- and too their heightened senses that's ike someone doing someothing excrutiatingly painful. They can't stop hitting out until someone recognises the problem and removes it. If they feel caged all day they will act like animals. Plus - increasingly as children get older- the SN child is more often the victim of bulluying. That's why so many AS teenagers end up suicidal- and the main reason that ASD is the fastest growing sector of the home ed market.

long post- but what I should say is that its no use having sympathy for the child being lumped about if no-one actually considers what is triggering the attacks. Far more use to have someone in the clasroom who says "right why is this child hitting out- oh its because the sun is too bright, or its because when the child who is being hit moves they block the board, or its becuase someone forgot to tell him MRs Jones was away today" rather than "there there poor child who's being hit that other boy is very nasty but he SN so we're not allowed to say that- what a naughty boy he is- naughty boy go and stand in the corner". And then as soon as he sits down the other child blocks the board again (and lets remember the SN child has no theory of mind so to him this child is doing it on purpose- even though he must know it winds him up) and once again some poor little kiddy gets lumped, and the SN child sinks further away from the sort of help they need.

Just interjecting a minute - something puzzles me about this problem.

Eve, your son has been at school for a term only, and I am wondering how you know this boy is SN as presumably you have not known the school for very long? Does this boy have physical characteristics that make his condition unmistakable?

My oldest son was on the special needs register, at the lowest, least serious level, for two years, but this was known only to us and his teacher. We did not make it common knowledge amongst parents as this situation did not demand it, and he was not hurting other children. I just wonder how the school told you (if it did) that this child was SN, how the school approached it, if they gave you any guidelines? Or did you hear the child was SN from another source?

dinosaur, i am offended by your comments. I was under the illusion that we are free to express our own opinions on this site and that these views may not be the same views everyone has. I have not read any other threads regarding this subject and stick to my guns on my comments.

kittenheels- but dinosaur was just pointing out that there aren't any special schools. They're being shut down, so saying a child shoud just go to special school isn't going to work as it isn't an option.

actually tigermoth I think thats a good point. I'm amazed at how freuqently people fail to spot that my son has SN- even though i think he sticks out a mile (for some reason when he fails to answer someone and wanders off when being spoken to they automatically assume he's ignorant- doesn't seemt occur to them that he hasn't understood a word they've said" Sometimes I think schools can use "oh he's SN" as an excuse not to do anything, as if nothing can be done. The child has been written off. Hopefully I've spelled out on here how easy it can be to change the environment- especially for developmental SN.

In an ideal world, the needs of every child would be met in the first place and we wouldn't have these problems.

As a parent I would be pretty concerned if my son was hitting out a lot- as I would know it meant he was very stressed. Luckily it hasn't happened very often and he's only ever attacked adults.

maryz- your son's school sounds great. It is so important to listen to parents. One thing that both the school and nursery (and autism outreach team) do when any sport of problem is encountered is talk to me, so we can try and work out why it s happening. Then we can begin to address it. I can often work out exactly what is happening (although sometimes I'm stumped). And its so immportant that schools will make these concessions- a desk of his own for example. Unless the problems are addressed then agression will continue (or often get worse- once you're in a downward spiral).

I've been reading this -- it's all interesting. My take on Chandra's post about the boy and the dog (his mom putting him in the kennel to teach him to be nice to dogs while he was physically hurting it) was that his mom was out of line. I've had incidences like that with other mothers (not mothers of SN kids) and have also let contact drop. I've never seen a woman again whose daughter I had to supervise to keep her from hurting my youngest son as the mother didn't care. Not SN. Not parenting I can deal with.

The thing is, no one here, SN mother or not, is like that. So I think judging Chandra for dropping the friendship isn't wrong. The mother is probably just like that (she'd meet trashing someone's house with "well he needs to learn not to.." ). I say that as someone who has a child, not SN, who I can't take to a few people's houses as he'd trash them. One of them is a friend whose house is full of knick-knacks. We joke about it, but I'd never take him there as I'm not that irresponsible. If I let him destroy her house, I wouldn't blame her for dropping me as a friend. What respect would I have shown to her?
There are simply situations he can't be in. So I don't put him in them.

And I don't mean to imply that parents of SN children can avoid situations that affect them. It's got to be impossible to go only places without fluorescent lighting, for example. It's just that you don't actively seek them out, probably, and definitely don't let children or animals get hurt so your child "learn".

Oh, I'm sure I've said that all wrong.... bombs away.

(I've got a house that's been destroyed, by the way. So all parents of destructo-children are invited here. We could use some decent playdates. I've got cleaning supplies out the wazoo and we might have to replace the nice floor and definitely the carpeting. Whoo hoo. Let the new year roll on.)

I agree with you about nightmare parents (think I said earlier the mother with the dog sounded a nightmare). I just worry that all agressive behaviour is seen as being nastiness when in the case of developmental disorders is usually isn't.

When I read Chandra's first message I felt the same as Maryz- but I think she went on to clarify that the mother hadn't tried to intervene- and that is obviously wrong.

oh so sorry to hear that maryz. When ds1's problems became apparent I lost quite a few friends thorugh embarrassment (theirs). Some have since rebuild bridges, but a few I just don't bother with and would be perfectly happy never seeing again as long as live (and I'm usually a bit sentimental about friendships). How awful to leave your son out of a party. Her problem though. In your position I'd keep my distance and see if she gets over it, but prepare yourself to drop her.

Yeah, I agree. We have that problem in our school with one boy who has ADHD. Parents are so quick to judge him when he's not doing anything so wrong, but something they can't correct. For example, he was interfering with a party game at the last party and the woman running it (a good friend of mine!) complained to me. The solution, from my experience, was to tell him what to do instead of what he was doing (ie, you can't just say "Don't do that!". He's a very sweet, bright kid. He's actually much better behaved than her son. It's just that what he was doing was more socially unacceptable than what her son was doing.

(He's the son of the mother with the knick-knacks... she gets no end of delight out of this.)

Oh dear, maryz, we cross posted. Someone who knows you should "know you". Labels shouldn't matter. She knew your son -- he's the same little boy.

I can't help thinking this thread has gone off track somewhat

Not really kittneheels- we're talking about how to stop SN children (at least ones with developmental sn) from behaving badly. Surely quite useful. Not sure how useful it is for EVe, but it does t leats give her some idea of things the school should be doing to stop her her son being beaten around, and it may give her some ideas of stuff to ask the teachers to get to the bottom of it.

JJ you're a natural. The reason you use postive language (ie tell the child what to do and not what not to do) is because even a lot of very able children with developmental problems have some sort of language difficulty. SO if you say "don;t touch the knick knacks" they hear "touch the knickknacks" (apparently negatives are harder to process or something). SO if you say "oh come over and help me do x" you're more likely to get a reposnse and the knick knacks remain safe.

Actually that was about the most useful things I learned in the Early Bird Course.

In Eve's case the parents of the child with SN might even be glad that these incidents are being reported. All too often SN parents beg the school for more help and support for their child, only to be told that the child is coping perfectly well as they are. Reports like Eve's are evidence that the child isn't coping.

hi everyone, just to keep you posted re: sn child at dds school. SN child now left DD's school and gone to an alternative local school with more resources for sn. ALot of the mums and also teachers are happy for him because he will do better at the new school with more resources for him to learn with. I can only wish him luck as although he hit, bit, spat at, and kicked my dd he was a really sweet boy.

I'm tentatively adding a bit to this thread, as a teacher I was in ine of the first boroughs to switch to inclusive education and start shutting down special schools. Our head fought it tooth and nail, for the simple reason that he said it was an excuse to start reducing funding. Early on we had a little boy with Downs. The head fought hard to get 100% support for him written into his statement. He got it, and the little boy came with a superb (untrained) classroom assistant. It was agreat success. The child did really well and the whole school benefitted. BUT there were many occasions, especially early on where that 100% support was crucial. 6 years later another child with downs came to our school. The head had changed, and didn't fight for 100% support. She was granted 50% support which, despite being obviously necessary for this child, was reduced to 25% after her first year. The class teacher was a friend of mine in that first year. She said that in the afternoons, when there was no assistant, she spent her whole time running round after this little girl, for a variety of reasons. Even during the mornings, things were very difficult because her classroom assistant was not very good (again untrained, getting trained assistants was only a pipe dream in our borough)

The point I'm trying to make, is that despite the best intentions of teachers, assistants and the school in general, integration can only work when there is addequate trained support. The LEA has no interest in providing it, because it costs money, and the net results of closing special ed down, has meant savings for the LEA, and less support for the kids who need it.

Most teachers are not trained at all in SN. Most classroom assistants come to the job untrained (although they may receive day release to attend training) I would love to see schools where each child that needed it had 100% support appropriate to their needs.

My guess is that in Eve's situation there is no classroom support, and the teacher is not confident in how to manage the child of the situation (nothing against her/him as a teacher, but this may be the case) I would always explain to other children WHY this child found such snd such difficult, but I would never expect them to be on the recieving end of the child's violence, I think that is unacceptable.

By the way, I had a severely (emotionally) disturbed child in my class, and despite some catty comments earlier in the thread, he did not get help when he hit the teacher, rather he had been hitting (and hurting) me for months, he got help when he started lifting the girls skirts, because the governors decided that was unacceptable (presumably, throwing chairs at me was fine)

Just to make myself clear, I have huge sympathy for parents of SN children, because I think getting them the education they need right now is a nightmare, the support they need is in such short supply. Jimjams, your son's school sounds great, the sort of place I would be proud to work in.

Sorry Eve, a long post but I hope you will persue it with the teacher, it doesn't matter if the child has SN or not, the school must manage the situation so that both children have their needs met (you ds's needs being to be safe at school)

steppemum agree totally.

If the LEA could have got away with it they would have funded ds1 for 80% of the time. This would have been a disaster. Luckily they know they that was unacceptable to both us and the head (I told them if he was funded for 80% of the time he would go 80% of the time). He now has written into his statement 1:1 10% of the time. But more than that he has professionals (from autism outreach team etc) who come into the school- and also- and this is a big one- school staff who welcome them, listen to them and realise that they learn from them. I know they are not so welcome in every school. I know that the autism outreach team are very pleased with how flexible the school is willing to be.

The really disgusting thing is that unless you have parents who are stroppy, and willing to take on the LEA the children will not get the help they need. It's so short sighted on the LEA's part as it just leads to breakdown. I also really object to the way that under the current system high functioning children have to "fail" before they will get the help they need. In a good school this failure is managed (so for example in ds1's school if a child needs more help they set up a time when he is observed without intervention and a report is written detailing the incidents and problems). In many schools though the child has to come close to anervous breakdown (see loobie's thread on SN at the moment) and it is wrong wrong wrong.

I am glad the SN boy has moved to somewhere more helpful but I feel for him that he has had to move. According to govt policy his needs should be able to be met at any mainstream school. It makes me realise that we chose correctly thoug- all the time the LEA has said our son should be at his local school where I am sure a similar sort of disaster would have unfurled (the school are well know for not be interested in anything more than dyslexia). It amkes our commute to school every day worthwhile iyswim.