Should I hire a tutor for 11+?

[Tryingtodothebest]

My child has been at an independent school since he was 4. He is entering year 5 in sept. his school goes up to year 11 so do not prepare children for 11+ however they do offer scholarships.
I need my son to get a scholarship or he will have to leave for financial reasons.
Would you recommend me hiring a tutor to prep him in VR etc.
Dh says it shouldn't be necessary as we already pay £4000 a term. I think all the other children will be tutored so he will need a tutor to make it an even sting field.
Please help

We are in Bucks. Ds won't be doing the 11+ (thanks heavens).

and what will they do when/if they get through then can't keep up with the work, will there be some one sitting in the class with them to help ?

Excactly my thoughts, mollymole. Much better to get into a school on your own merit, best if you find the exam relatively easy. At least you know that you'll easily keep up once you get in. And you'll feel very confident whilst there, which imo is at least as important as the facts you learn at school.

When we get dd's results of which schools she got into, we're very keen to find out how well/badly she did i.e. how far up/down the list she came, because I would hate to send her to a school where she only just scraped in (or even worse, got only a waiting list place) because she would have to struggle to keep up whilst there (equally I'm keen for her not to get bored, so if she came top of the list, perhaps that school might not challenge her enough). Hope this makes sense .

Sophiesmummie I think you've also got to look at why a child needs tutoring. 6 months before my DS sat an exceeding difficult 13+ Latin exam (one part was close to AS standard) I discovered that the so called Latin teacher knew only a little more Latin than I did. We engaged a tutor and my son did extraordinarily well in Latin and a year later now with no tutoring still is.
In prep with children taking CE/scholarship at 13+ tutoring particularly in languages and maths is not uncommon because generally these are not well taught.

Ds had lessons (once a week for 1.5 terms - not academic) to help him get a non-academic scholarship. It helped him with his confidence and was good practice for what he had to do in the entrance test. I wasn't going to bother with getting him tutored until I discovered that everyone else does the same (although for longer than ds had). His natural ability helped gain the scholarship but understanding what was required in the entrance test gave him the confidence to do well in what was a very competitive year.

No tutor here. DS sits his 11+ next month and I have worked through the VR methods and question types with him as well as general exam technique.

There is no way that I would pay out for a private school and then pay for a 11+ tutor as well!

happygardening You're tutoring on top of the tens of thousands of ££££ fees you're paying per year? Does everyone do that?

CouthyMow I believe that you said on another thread that you have a benefactor who's paying for 11+ tutoring. In light of this, I can't understand how you can say that children 'WILL need a lot of practice both with a tutor and at home'. You, of all people (again, having followed some of your posts) should know that many parents can't afford to pay for a tutor!

The 11+ is not a level playing field and the whole thing makes me cross. There are children going to weekly/twice weekly tutors; there are summer schools; there are children at private schools who are allowed unlimited practice as opposed to those in state schools who are allowed 3 formal practice tests.... and there are those children who do none of these, due to their parents' lack of interest, transient lifestyle, financial means or ignorance of the system.
Not fair!

as opposed to those in state schools who are allowed 3 formal practice tests

I agree, Flexybex. My DS's state school didn't actually offer any practice tests either, so I bet there are plenty of other schools out there who may give no input at all. The 11+ no longer facilitates the social mobility it used to.

flexibeck we only found out how awful the Latin teaching was 6 months before my DS was about to sit the exam and it was too late to move him. I like many believed the school who'd advised us to apply to this particular school knew what they were doing! When I found out they didn't and then spoke to other parents it turned out that most knew the language provision was pretty awful and had been tutoring their DC's for the last 2 years and also assumed I knew and was doing the same thing! I just need to add it was a boarding school so no school gate gossip! If I'd got an inkling of what was going earler I wouldnt have hesitated to move him to a better prep.

I don't know of any private school in our grammar school area that prepares dcs for 11+. The focus is either on moving up to the connected senior school or for those without a connected senior school the emphasis is on CE rather than 11+. Hence why people are booking tutors from yr 2 and why they can charge an absolute fortune. I couldn't imagine putting my dcs through that but equally it takes a brave parent not to do what everyone else is doing.

It's funny how coy people are about tutoring happygardening! No-one owns up to 11+ tutoring, either. TV cameras visited my son's ex-Grammar 2 years ago, and 2/3 of the pupils in a Y7 class admitted they'd been tutored!

bis The private schools around here openly publish their 11+ pass rates on their web-sites! It's not absolutely clear whether the percentage pass-rate is from the whole of Y6 or from those who choose to do it...... !!

I agree that everyone is a sitting duck for the avaricious 11+ tutors, because they're all thinking that they have to give their child the best start in life, just like xyz down the road. What is especially laughable, is that the tutors don't have to guarantee success, many 'teach' in groups (£££££!!!) and send a load of worksheets to do as homework. The whole system stinks.

Tutor sounds like a good plan + regular practice papers.

at the idea of a fair intelligence test. All tests are biased.

A bright child can do sod all if they haven't been taught all material they need to know to be able to do the test! And if they're not used to answering the type of questions that are in the test - figuring out what's actually being asked. And they need to be able to pace themselves time wise - it's no good if they get top marks on all their work if they don't finish the paper.

Trying - sounds like your problem is not that your child is or isn't bright, but that with three children on your hands private school fees are too expensive.

With a second child entering Y3 is September (are they transfering from state ? if so and they are bright child 2 could have been entered for the 7+ scholarships, ours was offered 80% -0 thus bringing total cost down without pressure on child1.
To bring cost down further look at the bursary application process, sibling discounts for child3, even if not available for 2 children might still be something for child3.
If your intent on keeping child1 at the school and see full scolarship for him as the only route - and if you truly have what it takes, i'd go hell for leather for the target tiger-0mother route - plough through the list of all scholarships on offer including the music and art ones, gets stats on applications per scholarship in previous years and force your child to become yutterly terrific in one tight area. It is doable, it will take your time and shear bloody mindedness. Depends how much it means to you, I would do it, but very few others would openly admit to even considering it.

Ds's scholarship is very generous but requires a huge commitment from him (equivalent to playing county level sport). Fortunately it is to do something he absolutely loves.

I was amazed at the open day to meet a number of other parents whose sole interest was the size of the scholarship, even though their dcs had no particular interest in the subject of the scholarship.

I absolutely wouldn't 'force your child to become utterly terrific in one tight area' unless it is something they absolutely love.

I can't imagine the misery of making a child do something with the knowledge that that is the only way he can have the education his parents want.

Rosemary and thyme, the school starts at year 3 which is why ds2 is only starting in Sept. They don't offer scholarships until year 7.
There are two free Grammars in the area but I'd like the children to stay here. Yet I would feel foolish paying full fees when I know ds1 could easily get into a grammar. Ds is desperate to stay where he is. I know ds2 isn't scholarship material but has a lot of common sense therefore by paying for his education I think he will succeed in life.
Dd is only 10months so no school for 5 years.

I'm always at what people mean about tutoring. DS1 did 11+ last year. In the middle of year 5, I was gave ds1 some sample 11+ papers and got him to do them under exam conditions to make sure he had the ability to pass the 11+. I've then marked them and highlighted his weaker areas: punctuation, spelling, essay construction but fine in maths, VR,NVR. I went over his weaker areas with him then did some practice questions/ essays with him to ensure his understanding was correct. We then worked on his exam technique in all subjects examined to ensure he could do the exam accurately and in the time allowed. Again lots of practice and sitting mock exams under exam conditions.

DS1 went to an inner city state primary, so all this was done after school and at the weekends. Approximately 1/2 hour after school and 1 hour on Ssturdays and Sundays for 5 months. We used Bond books and made up our own questions to hone the weaker areas. We promised Ds1 a reasonable reward of his choice if he put in the effort, not if he passed the exam, which worked well hin motivating him.

I don't think you can tutor a child to pass 11+ if they don't have the innate ability. You are then relying on luck that the same questions will come up on the exam and dc will remember the correct answer. iME no primary school is so bad that they don't teach the majority of english and maths needed to pass 11+ you may have to teach some year 6 work but not a huge amount. They do need to practice regularly in the run up to the exam and work on their weaker areas and exam technique. All reasonably intelligent parents (esp MNetters) are capable of helping their dc pass 11+ Without employing a tutor but agree with Happy that for 13+ in specialist areas like languages will probably need a tutor if your knowledge or their teachers isn't great.

I don't think what I was doing was tutoring just familiarising ds1 with the 11+. I was very organised and at the beginning of each week knew what I needed to cover with him and got the papers ready for each day. i made sure I marked the papers immediately and went through them with him before he forgot what he'd done.

Well with Ds really keen to stay where he is, personally I don't think it would be too odd to let him know the situation -ie We'd like to keeep you there too, but need the school to contribute to the fees, to do that you need to excel - are you willing to put in the time and effort needed to shine, even if it means less free-time for yourself, for a year ? -0 see what your lad says, some children of course will not want a commitment, which is fine in your situation as probably a transfer to gram would still be a good education and wouldn't shut any future doors for him, for mine the secondary options here are awful.

Also you could always give pushing him hard a go for a couple of months and then re-evaluate -0 he might well surprise you, mine grumped for the first week of 2hr daily additinal tutoring (by me) but after three weeks was so used to it he felt he was doing less than his friends,(not the case at all_) children tend to be OK with a situation if they feel everyone is doing the same, that they aren't missing out -0 this illusion can be created by wily parents intent on keeping good family relationships whilst at the same time optimising education.

If you are considering a deliberately taught path you will not be popular either here or in RL - in the East you'd be applauded !

The thought that children should not be forced to work on something they may not like or be "naturally" good at, stems from anxious thoughts about childrens self-esteem - my view is that there is no greater way to enhance a child self-esteem than for them to work hard, rise to a challenge, and be successful.

Rosemary makes a good point; ask him. All the children we knew going for very difficult scholarships at 13+ has chosen to go down that road because of the extraordinary level off hard work required, I was once told by a teacher that you obviously need to be super bright but also for two years prior to it be prepared to only focus on it. My DS thought about it and decided that was not what he wanted to do.

'I don't think you can tutor a child to pass 11+ if they don't have the innate ability.'

Many parents hope that their children will pass the 11+. They take them to a tutor, as it seems that the whole world and its mother is using one. It doesn't matter to the tutor whether the child passes or not - he or she is happily raking in the money.

On VR tests, it appears that tutoring can bump a score up by about 7 points.

It seems to me it would be cheaper for many parents to give up work and tutor their children at home themselves. Although I'm sure whatever they do, their children will look back on their 2-hours a day tutoring after school with huge fondness and think how much more fun that was than all the other worthwhile things they could have done with their time between the ages of 9 and 21. After all, once you've got through the 11 plus, EVERYONE is tutoring their child for their GCSEs and A-levels - otherwise how could they possibly hope to get into a Russell Group university and go on to get a glittering career in the sort of field that makes others envious? Being at a private school or grammar school isn't enough, it's just the first step. The teachers at these schools aren't actually that brilliant - their results are just down to all the tutoring that is going on behind the scenes and the hours put in by the well behaved students at the instigation of mum, dad and the tutor. I mean, what is life all about, except for getting a job that pays well enough to privately educate your children and pay for private tutors in the hope that some of the money hits the mark, when you don't actually have time to get off the hamster wheel and think about whether that's what you want your life to be about or your child's life to be like, or whether there is any other way of going about it? I think it's fantastic we all want to be Tiger Mothers. We could learn so much about how to live your life from the Chinese, because the world would be a much nicer place if we all copied their attitude. Life is, after all, simply about the battle for status, power and wealth. If you don't have these things, you are worth nothing. Just don't kid yourself into thinking you can relax after the 11 plus. It's just on to the next phase in the big competition. Manic, wild-eyed .

I gently asked my child the other day whether he wanted to be successful in life, or an abject failure. He happily and freely chose the former, I'm pleased to say, and is currently staying up late, studying for his 11 plus, which he takes in 3 years time.

My DS sat 11 plus last year. He is academically gifted so I was unsure as to whether I should tutor or not. I decided to have him assessed by a tutor who advised an hour a week. He worked through practice papers to find any gaps and did two mock exams.

I think even very able children need to be sure everything is covered and some exam techniques as competition is very fierce.

'EVERYONE is tutoring their child for their GCSEs and A-levels'

No, Rabbitstew. Only the people who can afford a series of sessions @£25 ph are tutoring their children. Not everyone.

Education is a rocky place these days that favours people with a disposable income.

flexybex - EVERYONE who is ANYONE is tutoring their child... Don't you know, it's all about status, power and income? I thought I made that clear...