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Why do faith schools dominate the league tables?

548 replies

benetint · 03/08/2012 23:00

I looked at the league tables for primary schools in my area (nottingham) and I was surprised to see the top few were not schools in affluent areas bur were all catholic schools. Many of them are actually in quite deprived areas. So what is it catholic schools are doing to get such excellent results? Is it that they can be more selective about who they take? Are they just exam factories? Ate they stricter with their kids? Or are they just better in general than secular states?

OP posts:
SofiaAmes · 06/08/2012 22:06

but DilysPrice, that would be lying. I don't need the church to look into my soul (of course being an atheist...I don't actually believe I have one, but....), to tell me that it's wrong and a bad example to set for my children.."It's ok to lie if you want something badly enough"
Thanks for the explanation of duffer.

I seem to remember having read the books as a kid and not liking them very much....but maybe I'll try re-reading them in my holidays spare time (not...I still have to work).

KitKatGirl1 · 06/08/2012 22:11

Surely those stats about choice are not accurate. Non-believers do not have more choice, if they actively want a non-faith school for their dc, but less - there may be two-thirds of schools which are not faith-based, but nine-tenths of the population do not have a faith. That's a huge deficit of places for non-believers...

(As I've mentioned in other threads, in my county almost all the faith schools are VC so do not have faith in the criteria at all. I think that that is a fair compromise - nearly everyone goes to their local village school regardless of whether they go to church and they tend to alternate per village - church/community/church/community etc)

DilysPrice · 06/08/2012 22:27

I agree that turning up at a church as a non-believer is a sort-of-lie Sofia - I just meant that nobody will ask you flat out "Do you believe in God?" or read your lips to check whether you're saying the words to the Nicene Creed (which is the point where bona fide atheists who find themselves in church remain tight lipped).

SofiaAmes · 06/08/2012 22:48

Oh dear, I'm going to have to put the Nicene Creed into the same category as the duffers....completely over my head. I know it's only a little lie, but I spend so much time trying to tell my children that even little lies are not ok, I don't want their education premised on one. They are already asking lots of questions about which kinds of lies are ok (ie telling friend that they smell, are fat, are ugly) and I am having enough trouble with those distinctions without adding things that I know full well are not ok and not justifiable.

SofiaAmes · 06/08/2012 22:55

Makes me feel....(diversion here) like when people talk about the Magna Carta. I grew up in Berkeley, so know all about the migration patterns of the caribou, I can make acorn mush, build an igloo and have been to People's Park on a field trip....but do not know what the Magna Carta is and cannot name a single European history date other than 1492 being the year that the jews were kicked out of Spain (same year as columbus "discovered" america). But interestingly, we did study religion in history including reading much of the new testament.

DilysPrice · 06/08/2012 23:05

Sorry, I deliberately added a bit of extra detail because I wouldn't expect you to know it, but clearly not quite enough. It's the bit where you all stand up and say clearly "I believe x, y, z", all the main tenets of C of E belief, in considerable detail. It's the bit that you might skip if you're just there for a friend's wedding, or to get your child into school, because it allows no wriggle room.

PigletJohn · 06/08/2012 23:13

The Nicene Creed is supposed to summarise the essential key points that you must believe to be a Christian. It is an agreed statement issued after a conference, so omits some contentious items. (it does not include some points about which there is disagreement, e.g. must all Bishops be illiterate Jewish manual workers who are male and grew up in North Africa, or can some of them be some or none of those things; and it doesn't include transubstantiation).

I'm not surprised aethists and agnostics don't like to repeat it
(I believe a man who was dead and buried came back to life?)

p.s. Columbus came from Genova in Italy, and never set foot on America, but he found Cuba, which is, perhaps, near enough,

PigletJohn · 06/08/2012 23:19

too slow

PigletJohn · 06/08/2012 23:36

sorry, should have said "never set foot on North America"

SofiaAmes · 07/08/2012 00:38

Yes, I do realize...hence the "discovered" - I am though a little irritated by the complete rejection of Columbus these days. I mean, ok, he missed North America by a little but he still sailed across the Pacific before the days of satellites and gps. We could at least celebrate what feats he did do.

kerrygrey · 07/08/2012 06:11

I thought Columbus sailed across the Atlantic? Difficult to get to America from Italy across the Pacific. Or was that a different journey?

SofiaAmes · 07/08/2012 06:14

Oh I am such a loser....yes the Atlantic. I got horribly seasick even looking at boats bobbing in the sea...so I guess the thought just addled my brain. Must be all that secular education I received.

breadandbutterfly · 07/08/2012 07:53

KitKatGirl - you claimed that:

"Surely those stats about choice are not accurate. Non-believers do not have more choice, if they actively want a non-faith school for their dc, but less - there may be two-thirds of schools which are not faith-based, but nine-tenths of the population do not have a faith. That's a huge deficit of places for non-believers... "

BUT acc to the 2001 census (and doubt it's changed dramatically in that time), 76.8% of the British population identified themselves as belonging to a religion with only a piddly 15.5% claiming to be of no religion and 7.3% not stated.

www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/religions.html

So yes,convinced atheists are in a very small minority yet have 2/3 of school places available. They/you do indeed have vastly more choice than the 3/4 of the UK population who do claim to be part of a religion but have only 1/3 of UK schools tochoose from! Do the maths - atheists have it far better than everyone else.

They just moan more.

seeker · 07/08/2012 08:08

There have been huge questions asked about how the figures for believers in the census were gathered.

And your post assumes that believers somehow need a different sort of education to non believers.

seeker · 07/08/2012 08:12

As an atheist, sending my child to a state school in this country (any state school, not just a faith school) gives my child an education, plus something that I do not want. A believer sending their child to a secular school would have an education minus something they want- but that is something that can easily be added in the other 18 hours of the day. I can't avoid religion in education. Believers don't actually need there to be faith based education- they a free to practice their religion with their children whenever they want.

breadandbutterfly · 07/08/2012 09:11

Basically, because atheists don't want a religious education for THEIR child, they wish to deprive ALL OTHER children of the opportunity to have a religious education.

I don't try to force everyone to go to my preferred choice of school, and dictate that all other types of education must be banned. What gives atheists the right to decide the knd of education that all others must have??

What we have currently is a system that caters to a variety of people with a variety of different needs and desires. What seeker and others like her would like is a system with no choice at all and where superior beings (ie seeker and those like her) dictate what kind of education all our children should have.

The unstated assumptionhere is that Atheists Know best, better than the rest of us, What is For Our own Good.

Because we are just silly little irrational religious types, who really cannot be trusted with our own children's education at all, and should listen to those Clever Atheists. Hmm

breadandbutterfly · 07/08/2012 09:14

seeker ignores the fact that she and all the other 15.5% of the population who do not wish to attend faith schools have a whopping choice of 2/3 of the country's schools.

But apparently that is Not Enough. They will not be satisfied until they have 100%, until we religious types Do What We Are Told and send our children (not seekers') to the school that she deems suitable for us.

Isn't it lucky we have such Wise Atheists to tell us where/how we should educate our children. Hmm

Iamsteve · 07/08/2012 09:36

Hi Breadandbutter, I'm afraid I'm not wrong about that. It appears you are going from personal experience, where-as I am going from research carried out on the subject in the form of multiple studies in different areas with various samples and samplings. With your personal experience that may well be the case and that's great, but across the board I'm afraid it's a different story.

It's not only in Central London, not only do we have lots of data contrary to this but I hail from a small town called Ringwood in the New Forest, neighbouring a place called Verwood which is just one example of a very religious area that causes issues with schooling. A friend of mine has a child that attends a school there (there is no other school near by) and he worries that his son is seen as the "weird kid" because he leaves the classroom to sit outside on his own during the daily worship. He also doesn't get on so well with a couple of teachers since he's read "The Magic of Reality" which has led him to question some of what they assert, which they evidently disapprove of.

With regards to the curriculum and stats, my point is that there are credits given for the non-secular side of the curriculum which of course the pupils do well in, but there is by no means any evidence that faith schools per se produce children that go on to become great academics. I think it's also important to remember that faith schools vary, they're not all the same and some are more open to diversity and free thinking than others, however... the danger remains that there are still faith schools which are to some extent opposed to free thinking, the new "Free Schools" created and run by creationist organisations for example.

@Schoolworries, we are campaigning for fairness and equality. Some parents don't have the choice. Whether the be financial, geographical, or culture/religion based. Some faith schools also discriminate with regards to employment of teachers, and to make matters worse some will now be accepting teachers who are not qualified to teach just because they're of faith. We are also campaigning against the homophobia, sexism, and racism which is far more common in faith schools than secular schools, and against the segregation it causes, which leads to tribalism and more culture and race based issues later on in life. We do not advocate humanist schools. Just fair and open schools for all which allow children to learn about all faiths and subjects that are good for their futures.

@Solidgoldbrass, great to hear you're a member. Yes that's often the case, where such schools are not selective and more open to all, the averages do get pulled down. It is a worry to some extent that some children may not get the same amount of attention due to large class sizes and children whose first language is not English needing more of the teachers time, but that's all the more reason why public funds should not be spent on faith schools which are selective, and instead used for all children to have the same chances in life.

With regards to the comments about targeting the wealthy... whilst we don't agree with the concept of faith schools we are only campaigning against state funded faith schools. If the wealthy want to send their children to privately funded faith schools (or schools paid for by the church itself) then fine, but why should everyone else's taxes be paying for schools that only allow certain children, often only of certain faiths, and sometimes of certain classes in. Schools paid for by all, should be open to all.

seeker · 07/08/2012 09:46

What on earth are you talking about, breadandbutterfly? You wouldn't like yout taxes go into an education system that taught your children that there is no god- why is it right that my taxes go into a system that teaches my children that there is?

Iamsteve · 07/08/2012 09:47

FYI The new census results on this subject will be out in September, and likely to show very different results from the 2001 census as non-religious was an option at the top this time, where-as before people were identifying themselves as Christians when in fact they weren't, but their parents may have been or they felt it was the more obvious choice to to our living in a so-called Christian nation.

CecilyP · 07/08/2012 09:51

^So yes,convinced atheists are in a very small minority yet have 2/3 of school places available. They/you do indeed have vastly more choice than the 3/4 of the UK population who do claim to be part of a religion but have only 1/3 of UK schools tochoose from! Do the maths - atheists have it far better than everyone else.

They just moan more.^

b&b, I think you are still missing the point. Secular schools do not exclude people of faith whereas some, but not all, faith schools do exclude people who do not subscribe to their particular faith. They also exclude people of the faith whose church-going does not match up to their requirements. Your post also presupposes that all people of faith always actively seek faith schools. That really isn't the case.

Iamsteve · 07/08/2012 09:52

Breadandbutter, out of curiosity... if a parent wished to send their child to a school that taught Scientology, or maybe even a school that taught Thor was our God and that Odin banished the Ice Giants, and the children must pray to him for it... then sure, maybe that parent still has a right to choose to send their child there, but it should not be paid for by all other parents.

seeker · 07/08/2012 09:53

Cecily- there are no secular schools in England. They are all nominally Christian and are obliged by law to have collective worship of "a broadly nature".

seeker · 07/08/2012 09:54

Sorry- "broadly christian in nature"

breadandbutterfly · 07/08/2012 09:56

I'm wrong about what? - you don't say, Steve.

You however ARE wrong, as I proved above. (P4) - I'll paraphrase my earlier posts in case you missed them.

You said I was wrong to claim that:

"Thus even though many faith schools devote far less time to secular subjects, the kids actually perform far better than average in those secular subjects" and asked if I "would be willing to link to the study that states that, as it's contrary to all of our findings. "

Assuming you don't mean that faith schools devote MORE time to secular subjects (unlikely) then presumably you were implying that the kids DON'T perform better.

Whilst it hadn't been me me who claimed faith schools got better results overall, it was the OP, I did then go on to prove that the OP was in fact correct in this (see P5) -

^"Overall faith schools perform better in headline GCSE results, ... More advanced analysis of pupil progress to GCSE show that on average pupils at
faith school progress slightly faster than similar pupils at non-faith schools. "^

docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:HhioyS3xL2MJ:www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN04405.pdf+educational+levels+faith+groups+uk&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh7e7lz9gcZle1c1RTE3a3O3PgjsY532ofnPMYTW_3EcAULIQjG_bDFEzmsqVZBlmrvPxqNvrjcXmRH3OkV84sVyiuQhMWJbM5iYj6GGO9Q7_IFGuF6mmMhPCYrhtOW2W-k9ESg&sig=AHIEtbRXakcKh1akNTNXLDcEg8mQqSiC-A