Why do faith schools dominate the league tables?

[benetint]

I looked at the league tables for primary schools in my area (nottingham) and I was surprised to see the top few were not schools in affluent areas bur were all catholic schools. Many of them are actually in quite deprived areas. So what is it catholic schools are doing to get such excellent results? Is it that they can be more selective about who they take? Are they just exam factories? Ate they stricter with their kids? Or are they just better in general than secular states?

"People with money who give things are generally very canny-they don't just hand it over without controls."

Sorry to labour it, but I thought Jesus wasn't into possessions? Or unfairness, or an 'I'm all right Jack' attitude? (Not directed at you particularly exotic fruits, just making the point).

If you think all Christians behave just like Jesus then you are in for a disappointment!

What, you mean they don't ?!

What Jesus thinks is immaterial! The church has assets and they are hardly likely to hand all their school buildings and land to the state. I doubt whether anyone on here would either!

"What Jesus thinks is immaterial!"

Clearly!

You have to be realistic! If you want to get rid of faith schools they have to be bought out! You can't say 'we like your schools but without the faith - give them to us!'

Thing is, exactly who are 'we' and 'us' ?

'we' are the people on this thread who don't think that faith schools should exist - the same people as 'us'.
Personally I think that people like faith schools because they are often good, ignoring the fact that if they were not faith they would be an entirely different school and might not be good any more!

Don't forget that Religions are also tax exempt. At least here in the USA, and I believe it's the same there, Churches/synagogues/mosques etc. do not pay property taxes on their land and do not pay income taxes (like a commercial entity would), so that they are in essence being subsidized by the tax payer in that way as well.

And I just want to say again, I am not opposed to Faith schools, just the government/tax payer's subsidization of them when they are not all equally open to everyone.

And that does raise another point about what should be available in terms of schooling....At my dd's new private faith school, they track the kids according to ability. However, all the parents I have spoken to are delighted with the tracking and say that movement between tracks is very fluid and a child can be high in one subject and low in another. I think, that if all the teachers are good and all the facilities are of the same standard, then there is no reason not to have grammar and comprehensive schools (having said that, I suspect that in reality not everything else is equal).
At my dd's last school....a state school that professed not to track the kids, my dd who tested as highly gifted was in a classroom with children with pretty serious learning issues and as a result she was not challenged and quite frequently came home saying she had learned nothing that day (pretty scary when your 9 year old actually realizes she did no learning in school) because the teacher was too busy dealing with behavior and the kids who needed extra help.

It depends where the schools are - lots of faith schools are in villages and they are open to everyone - those in the catchment area come first. You only have problems with admission if you are not in the catchment area or are in a big city, like London.

Bread&Butterfly. "Stalin hated Trotsky and his Judaism"

"People with money who give things are generally very canny-they don't just hand it over without controls."

I did say generally.

Stalin went to a church school, then studied theology before becoming Stalin we all know and "love". One of his "great" deeds was not only to separate church from state but completely ban any religion not only from schools but peoples private lives. Interesting to know that after 70 years of Communist rule the need for religion became so overpowring that modern Russians are the most church going nation now. People brough up as atheists by state found they have great need for church and religion after all.

Going back to OP just wanted to point that religion gives people moral structure, behavioral standards and that is why the faith schools are doing better ..

pianomama - well according to your logic, a church schooling didn't do much for Stalin's moral structure and behavioural standards.

Perhaps he should have attempted to force religion on the nation instead, as we do here with our schools.

No, there is no logic, its just a statement of facts. Schools dont make people what they are. Stalin didn't become Stalin because of his school.
The founder of modern genetics Mendel lived and made his experiments in a monastery.
All I am saying there should be a choice. Forcing anything usually creates the opposite effect. Noone in this country is forced to choose faith school.
I dont undersand why it makes some people angry that they do a better job in education then non faith schools..

People apparently have a great need to eat in Mcdonalds. That doesn't mean we should turn running school canteens over to the burger joint.

"I dont undersand why it makes some people angry that they do a better job in education then non faith schools.."

Well, if you read the thread you might get a better idea. In a nutshell, faith schools make people angry because:

1. They operate discriminatory admissions policies which they wouldn't get away with in any other area such as employment, or NHS hospital admissions.

2. Their discriminatory admissions policies have the effect in some cases of creating 'middle class selection' (as long as you are middle class and of the 'right' religion of course). This is why some faith schools do better - because they are able to pick and choose their intake, thereby putting other local schools who don't do this at a disadvantage.

"Noone in this country is forced to choose faith school."

Well it would be nice if everyone had an equal chance of getting into the local school of their choice, but they don't because faith schools operate discriminatory admissions policies. So some people are forced to 'choose' schools which are miles away and NOT of their choosing.

And re forcing religion, all state schools are by law supposed to provide Christian worship as part of assemblies. There is no such thing as a secular school.

"The Education Act 1944 introduced the requirement for daily prayers in all state-funded schools, but later acts changed this requirement to a daily "collective act of worship", the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 being the most recent. This also requires such acts of worship to be "wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character".[3] The term "mainly" means that acts related to other faiths can be carried out providing the majority are Christian.[4]"
(from Wikipedia 'Faith School')

Sorry Exotic, that wasn't a criticism... I just thought would be worth a mention of those guys as they're so inspiring.

Pianomama, "religion gives people moral structure, behavioral standards" I'm not sure I could think of a worse place to take moral lessons from that the bible. All that religion has been responsible for, I'm not sure that claim is a good one either. That religion is now more moral than it was in terms of the actions of religious people (generally) is more to do with the shifting moral zeitgeist and what's acceptable in modern society than what's within the doctrine. The church for example, has been forced to modernise some of its views... had it not, I'm not sure you would be calling it a good place to get morals from.

Atheists too have morals, they behave not for fear of punishment or promise of reward, just because it's the right thing to do. Also, you'll probably find that a lot of religious people are simply moral anyway, without the need for religion.

"Schools dont make people what they are."

steve - I am not going to argue with you about existance of God or go into details about the difference between faith and religion. Don't know what you object to in Bible (unless you thinking about The Old Testament which was before Christ and therefore Christianity as religion).
Christian tradition in Europe are not only responsible for Holy wars, Holy Inquisition etc , but looking back into history gave us our civilization as we know it - with morals and standards. Whether you are an atheist or not, you carry Christian morals with you - do not kill, do not steal, do not want your neibours wife :) etc.

I think the anger comes from the fact that alternative system are not working as well as traditional ones?
All the arguments I saw so far sounds to me like - they doing well, its hard to get into one of these therefore lets close them!
Like other people have said - if you take them away from church, take away religion, the will become just like other the not so good schools.

"All the arguments I saw so far sounds to me like - they doing well, its hard to get into one of these therefore lets close them!"

They are 'hard to get into' not because they are good schools, but because they DISCRIMINATE. You make them sound like universities which choose on the basis if academic merit.

And many people would prefer to send their children there NOT because they are faith-based, but because the school is within walking distance, and their children went to toddler groups and pre-schools with other local children who will be going there.

And nobody is talking about closing them, just stopping them from operating discriminatory admissions policies.