If an older child muttered

[Bink]

... in the school playground in front of you, what would you do? What would your child do - or what would you want him to do? And is that "bullying"?

Older boy was 9ish, ds is 6. I got ds to turn away from him and said to ds (quietly, so other boy couldn't hear) "he just wants you to know that he is bigger and older than you. If it was me, I would say inside me "Who cares" and then just do something else."

I do think it was a kind of instinctive pecking-order statement by the older boy - he didn't single ds out to say it, it sort of came out of his mouth, as ds in his vague way drifted near the group of older boys. And it wasn't followed up by anything that looked (to me) threatening, or by anything that looked like he was trying for a confrontation.

But is this the thin end of the wedge? And should I have said something? Somehow I feel that saying something to the older boy would just have confirmed poor ds's place at bottom of the pecking order - ie, make him look dependent on his mummy to speak up for him.

What do you think a braver, sporty, high-in-the-pecking-order 6yo would have done?

Something weird happened to my title: it should say "If an older child muttered fartyboy to your child ..."

muttered what?

snigger.

I have to say that 9yo and 6yo is a big age/developmental gap. I'd have been suprised and if either of my DSs had've said something like that to a 6 year old when they were 9.

You did the right thing

but you don't know with little boys, it could have been the continuation of a playground game all players considered harmless and that it was important, in terms of pecking order and not being a cissy, that your son took it on the chin so to speak.

In answer to your final question: ds1 who is very kind and gentle and eager to please but a bit giddy would have just laughed but ds2 who is fiesty little monkey would have chased older boy and grappled him to the ground in a rumbunctious testosterone-fuelled kind of way.

I'd be annoyed and probably would say something to the older boy immediately. (Not too harsh just let him know i wasn't amused) But then i'd question dd later as to what relationship they had. My dd is 5 and has sort of 'freindships' already with some of the older kids in the playground so might it have ben in jest?
If it was then no harm done but if it was nasty then should be stamped on at once.

Will check with ds after school, bink! I suspect that, regardless of what he says, his reaction would have been to say nothing initially, and then turn to me and say, incredulously, "X just said yyy to me!". And I would then have said, 'Take no notice, he's just trying to show off." Definitely best not to say anything to other kids, ime (absolutely embargoed by dd1, unless immediate threat to life present, or the offending child is a friend).

Ds is quite big on spotting older boys showing off, ever since I introduced the concept when somebody was doing something (can't remember what) in front of both of us and an adult response was clearly required. When we see eg. teenage boys doing wheelies in the traffic ds now loves to whisper to me conspiratorially, "Mummy, those bigger boys are just being silly and showing off, aren't they?"

And no, I don't think it is bullying unless it's part of a sustained pattern of behaviour.

Dd1 was intermittently picked on by a group of girls in the year above (but they weren't singling dd1 out, they were like that to everyone). She came up with a range of killer responses to the shouts of 'speccy four-eyes', including, "You're in the year above me, you should know better", or: "Gosh, you really are immature, aren't you." But these do require a certain level of chutzpah to pull off, and are probably more of a girl response than a boy tactic.

frogs sorry but i disagree.
I think two or three words from an adult there at the time and kids won't think they can get away with what they want.

My DS1 (aged 7) would probably have responded 'poo poo head' or something equally toilety but probably wouldn't have taken it to heart!

I'd have probably said 'that's no way to talk to each other and you'll be in bother if a teacher catches you so think on' and would have left it at that. I'd probably then speak to ds1 about it after school to see if it was a one off or an ongoing issue.

Agree totally with suze and frogs here.
Ds might very possibly have either turned to me incredulously, trilled back, Mister Stinkypops, or burst into tears...depending on name-caller, back-history and mood on the day.
And ds is not brave or sporty, bless him. Although his astonishing imagination means that he is popular when it comes to devising games and we have noticed he is being sneered at less by some of the mini-jocks in his class now.
I will also check with my ds and ask him his views. Although he may well say "I'd have blasted him with the mighty gunge gun I have hidden in my briefcase".
My instinct would have been not to intervene either. I still burn with shame over the time my fiery mother took on a BIG 11 year old who was undeniably bullying me, in the playground, in front of about 200 gobsmacked children and dinner ladies. Those were the days - you could threaten to wring a bully's neck and "kick his evil cowardly backside into the middle of next week" (sic, those words are engraved upon my heart) and not get reported to social services. He did stop though.

Angeliz, it's one thing intervening on behalf of a 5yo, but quite another to intervene on behalf of an older child, particularly if the child in question is older still. Both dd1 (10) and ds (6.5) would be mortified if I defended them in a verbal altercation they were having with another child. It's okay to intervene if two boys are carrying on in a way which is clearly likely to cause physical injury, and okay to tell off two children equally for using inappropriate language, but I would be very reluctant to get involved in pecking-order issues such as bink describes.

There are quite complex social codes around verbal jostling for status among upper-infant and junior aged children, and having your mummy intervene on your behalf is not going to make you look like a big boy.

Thanks, all, so much.

Yes - nikki - I have subsequently thought that I should check out whether it's part of a pattern. I see what you all mean about bullying meaning a trend (not a one-off) too - and about this kind of interaction maybe having some other history, like a game.

frogs, that's pretty much what ds did do - he boggled at the boy (looking very slightly distressed, but more puzzled), backed off and told me.

Angeliz, I think my problem is that (rather like ds) on the spot I wouldn't be able to think of the right thing to say to the boy. Hm, I wonder if he was sort of relying on ds & me both being dumbfounded. And I do think I will say to ds that I hope I never catch him saying something like that to someone littler.

Oh God i'm going to be the Mother from Hell aren't i?

I would have just said "tut ooh that's not very nice" but i just can't help myself!!

frogs, i guess it's different with girls too eh? (mine are both girls).

Well, I responded (instinctively) like Angeliz quite recently. I was standing with ds1 near his classroom when a girl from his class (who I know and is generally lovely, whose parents I know, and who I ahve babysat for) shouted at ds1 "XXX has had a stupid haircut". (He had just had his hair cut, but not stupid, honest.) Ds1 is a sensitive boy (7) and he just did that wilting, shrinking in to me thing. My instant response was "That wasn't a nice thing to say, [girl's name]". Interestingly, she ran away but her two friends who had been with her and were looking a bit horrified stayed. Bless, one of them looked really uncomfortable and embarrassed, but she is a really lovely girl. I did wonder after whether I shouldn't have said anything and whether I was creating a bigger problem by saying something, but unfortunately, the instinct to protect my baby kicked in before my brain had a look in! I did quiz ds1 later about the girl and he said she was like that with everyone, and was horrible. I was . I gave ds1 a few suggestions of what to say if she said anything else. He didn't seem bothered about it later.

I think I stepped in because (1) I remember how it feels when someone shouts horrible things at you, (2) instinct and (3) ds1 is quite sensitive and I think quite vulnerable to this kind of attack. If it had been dd, she would have told the girl off and not been bothered in the slightest!

I'll shut up now. But I'm really interested in what everyone else thinks about how these situations should be handled.

Oh, missed the more replies - thanks again.

Marina, I am in awe of your mum. But when to step in is a tricky call, isn't it.

Also it's boys vs girls: I've seen dd (5.5) deal with similar and it doesn't seem nearly as complex - first of all, it seems only to be the boys who do name-calling at this age, so it's already not as intimate a pecking-order-challenge (ie, dd can just see it as "oh, only a boy [scorn]"; then, she has available the option of a pout and a toss of the hair (which is what she does), neatly expressing contempt, unconcern, and dismissal.

Cross-post again - I agree, ponygirl - I do think these things are really interesting (and where discussing them truly helps).

Oh, Bink, love your description of girls - spot on!

Oh Bink -

How difficult and upsetting. Two things spring immediately to mind for me. First - I'm stunned/amazed that the older boy would mutter this so that you could hear. He's either a very brash child, or a kid who doesn't think things through at all. Not very clever to say it in front of you.

Secondly, I probably would have done like you did as I hate confrontation and also am not very good at responding to potentially upsetting things in the moment. I always think of everything I wish I'd said later.

Has this boy picked on your son before? Have there been any other incidents? If so, I'd look into whether the school has any sort of articulated bullying policy, "kindness code" or anything else? Might be useful for the teachers to generally reinforce this verbally (not mentioning your ds of course) along with any consequences of breaching it.

Lastly, I probably would keep an eye on this boy in future, and if anything else at all happens, would be prepared to intervene. I don't have a ds or a 6 year old, but can't think that any 6 year old can reasonably be expected to hold their own against a 9 year old. You definitely want him to be able to fight his own corner, but perhaps he could use some help when he isn't yet capable against physically bigger/more mature children.

I get completely upset about these sorts of things, and a bit of the lioness protecting her cubs instinct comes out. Do keep posting and let us know what happens.

Just a quick update as you have all been so kind: I checked with ds, and ds says the bigger boy has never said anything rude to him before, ds doesn't know his name, doesn't know him as somebody who says rude things to other people, etc. So it does look just like a (big-dog-to-little-dog) one-off.

Best of all, dd was jumping around saying "[ds], [ds], what did he say to you?" and ds simply said "I can't remember." Which may not have been strictly the truth, but was a very sensible way of putting it behind him.