More value out of private school at primary or secondary?

[Gleek]

Just something I have been giving thought to, if you had to pick between educating your DC privately at either primary or secondary level, what would you go for?

Is it more important to lay good foundations or (try to!) keep them more focused at secondary? This is hypothetical really but could possibly be in a situation where it is something we need to look at properly.

I think I would start her in the local primary school. I have found with my children that having friends who live near you and being part of the community is a good thing. You can then re-assess your options when she is coming up to Yr 3. I moved my children to private schools in Yrs 3 and 4.

If you're happy with the infant school (other than the worry about mixing at Y3), then I would stick with that plan, with a view to moving to private at Y3 if the available state schools are not as good as the private.

The dilemma over house moving is tricky. If you think spending £30 - £50k on moving would get your DD into state schools that would match the private school, then that seems like a good investment. You'd get the education for the same 'cost' but you'd still have the house at the end of it and could sell and move again to release the cash if you needed it. The added bonus of that plan is that subsequent children (?) would go to the great state school without further investment.

Aside from your situation, I think the right primary setting is crucial and the secondary setting less so. I think primary is where confidence and social skills are developed, an attitudes to learning are set, an secondary is leaving it late to try and correct those things if they are lacking.

If it helps, I am possibly biased as I have small children and am looking at sending them to private schools until 11 and then reassessing. At this point, I think I can only commit to financing private for primary or secondary, but you never know what'll happen in the future, so maybe I'll be able to fund both. I'd be gutted if I'd saved my money for secondary, sending my kids to a substandard primary, and then money was less of an issue when they get to 11 anyway!

Our local state primaries are excellent - laying good foundations in all sorts of ways, I think, not just academically.

Our local secondary school has been dire, and is on the way up.

So for us, it would seem a no-brainer: state for primary, private for secondary.

But as others have said, its more complex than that in reality. dd1 is so happy at her state primary, and is the sort of child who thrives on stability and continuity in her relationships - it would be so wrong to move her, so she's staying till Y6. Which means pretty much all of her friends will be going in to State secondary education - which means dd will be very reluctant to go somewhere where she knows no one.

Plus, the local private secondaries turn out to be the sort that 'manage out' dyslexics or other SENs, and don't fit our values. Plus, I'm not sure any of them would suit dd1 (dd2 yes).

Plus, schools change SO much over the years - the school that dd is at, which is wonderful, was the local sink school when dd was born. You could set your heart on somewhere that is great now, but isn't by the time your DC are old enough to apply!

In which case I would second opting for private at Yr 3 through Yr 6.

IMO what really counts at secondary are attitudes to both work and general participation, and the friendship group.

DD is at a private secondary where a good chunk, probably the majority come in from state primaries. By the end of year 7 there is no obvious difference. The ex-state school kids pick up Latin and French pretty fast and they tend to live in more affluent areas where state primaries are pretty good. Some kids will mess around and some will get distracted. Not all will achieve their potential and much of this will be down to the individual and the friendship group. Advantages prep school kids have in Yr 7 where they repeat a lot of ground they have already covered, are made up for by the habit of hard work that their ex-state school peers will have had to employ during that first year.

The main difference I can see is in terms of participation. Kids at prep schools have a background of trying out for the school team, playing an instrument, being part of the school play etc to a seemingly much greater degree that at state primaries. They then arrive at secondary expecting to participate fully, to stay late for team practice etc. I think they would do the same if they moved at 11+ to a state secondary. This may come across as confidence but it is probably more being in the habit of taking full part in school life.

It is relatively hard for a child who has not really engaged in team sports like netball or played an instrument before the age of 11, to be in the running for selection for school teams, orchestras etc.

I think it depends on the child and the quality of the schools in your area. My DD was painfully shy at the age of 4. I didn't want her being "lost" in class of 30, we decided to opt for private, she has never been in a class of more than 14 and has developed into a confident outgoing girl. She may have gone that way anyway but I think her lack of confidence would have enabled her to hide in a larger class.
The state school provision in our area at the time wasn't very good for us as the two top perfoming schools were church schools and heavily oversubscribed, our realistic "choice" was underperforming so it wasn't a difficult decision to make.
We are lucky enough to be able to afford to continue in private sector but I think the primary years are where the greatest foundations can be laid.

Can I suggest a third way?

State for primary & secondary up to GCSE then private for 6th form (if there is no really good local 6th form)?

My reasoning is that your able, focussed child will come out of GCSEs with a reasonable fist full of GCSEs wherever they go.

Universities will look at GCSEs (and where they were taken) and predicted A level grades when they make offers. If the candidate went to a bog standard comp then an excellent 6th form then I think there is optimising of the sympathy vote (bog standard comp) with maximising of A level achievement.

Of course then there is the benefit of only paying for private for 2 years!

We live near a grammar school area. A lot of people say they choose the prep to give a leg up for grammar, although only about 20% actually leave the school to go elsewhere. The rest go on to the senior school. Not sure how many of that 80% are grammar school failures or whether parents have chosen not to put them forward for the 11+ (school offers no tuition for it). Quite a few in ds's year chose the school because it covers 3 to 18. Personally I'm not sure that is a good thing as it means the prep doesn't seem to feel a need to try that hard.

Ds is moving to a prep that finishes at 13 with no attached senior school. I'm looking forward to seeing what the differences are.

gnome I'm afraid a student's school and how long they have attended are provided to university admissions officers...

From what I have read about university admissions is that one of their concerns is that A level is a vital bridge to degree.

Offers to high end universities are absolute in that students need to have reached a certain standard to be able to get the best out of the degree course. While a B at A level chemistry from a bog standard comp may show exceptional dedication by the student, the top university would still be wanting the A grade student for their chemistry degree simply because there is then less of a bridge to the start of the degree course.

There was quite an interesting article about this in the Telegraph a few months ago.

I suppose the question is what is the 'extra' you want to buy? Can you buy what you want?

I have found that although there is a considerable difference between primary and prep schools when it comes to secondary the differences between state and independent are gargantuan. Admittedly my DS attends a £32 000+ a year big name so this maybe influencing my decision but its not just results the whole culture is completely different. Its possible to send your DC to a good primary and make up the difference its impossible to send your Ds to a good state and make up the difference.
But OP you have decide what you want from education what you want maybe not what I want and the completely different "whole culture" that I experience and value may not do it for you.This is one reason why you will get so many contradictory opinions on MN.

GnomeDePlume - your last post highlights an issue which I fear is consistently misunderstood in much of the population.

In general parlance, we use "3 As at A-level" as shorthand for "she's really clever" and we use A-level (and indeed other examination grades) as a sort of proxy IQ. Universities, however, use A-level grades to measure the skill level of a pupil and how well prepared that pupil is for a specific curriculum/course of study. It is not sufficient to be clever to go to university, and thinking that it suffices to apply a discount to the A-level grades of pupils from poor performing schools is far too great a shortcut to make.

Being able to pay gives you more choices. No guarantee that they are better, but usually if you have a greater choice of options then you should find something that is best for you and your child. Certainly the extent of the range of options tends to be much wider at 11+ in terms of size, single sex v mixed, facilities, boarding v day, specialisms, sport, co curricular etc. But depending on where you live you may be on the doorstep of an excellent secondary school but out of area for all but the dodgiest primary. If you think that you can only afford one not the other then don't opt for a private school until you can see a clear benefit in it.

Both of mine have gone to private preps. We have the London problem that we were effectively out of catchment for every local primary school, and would be allocated the nearest undersubscribed school with places. They're at different preps as they have different personalities and preferences. We want them to be at the same selective independent for secondary. Ds1 has his place. No guarantee for ds2. Having looked at a number of alternative schools, we think that a CofE comp may be the best choice for him if he doesn't get a place at the same school. Ie we think that it is better than a number of the independent alternatives, though we haven't ruled out boarding yet!

this is the article I was thinking about.

IMO well worth a read.

Whether you get better choice by going private depends on where you live. There are only a couple of private schools in my area so not a great choice.

I'd read that article before, GnomeDePlume - it is very insightful indeed and highlights the critical importance of adequate relevant preparation for university.

DD is starting an infant school in September that only goes up to year 3, it's got an outstanding ofsted, only negative for me is having to move her at end of year 2. She would then need to go to primary school, one option is great but very small catchment that we'd need to move to get her into (probably spending an extra £30-50k to do so, for the sake of four years of good primary), one not so great and showing few signs of improvement.
Is there a linked junior school option available as that is where your child is most likely to be allocated a place? Even moving house cannot guarantee you a place at a primary school if the school is already full. Is the infant school likely to stay that way or will it be expanded to become a primary school at some point?
I would stay in state option for primary and pay for music lessons (or other extra activities such as MFL) as needed. Some state primary schools do offer MFL but it is rare and is often not linked to language options at secondary school.

No linked junior school unfortunately and no space/option to extend into primary.

The school that's very good is joined to a different infant school but you have to apply again for the primary (no pref to children in infant school) and they have an additional class so we'd be fairly confident of getting her in if we moved close enough.

We've decided we are going to stick with state until Year 3 and review our options then, unless anything happens in the interim to change our minds.

That article is a very interesting read - thank you, this whole thread has given me some much needed perspective!

My ds has been in private since age 3 and is fininshing Y5. As it looks at the moment, he is going to go to state after Y6. The local state comp has results equal to the local fee paying schools, so I really can't see the point in paying for equally good GCSE's ( or whatever equivalent). We will then use the saved 15-20K pa for tutoring in the subjects he struggles in, to make up for the larger class sizes. We can't afford £30K for private boarding each year.
He is a typical unmotivated boy and would have really struggled/been lost in the crowd in a state primary. He has had an excellent grounding, is used to participating in class, in music, learns MFL, drama, tennis, swimming and judo in school.
We then plan to return him to private for 6th form boarding, so we avoid the teenage angst, and he gets good A@levels ready for Uni.