"teachers should be academically able" discuss incl with relevance to home ed

[Theas18]

Following on from an AIBU were the OP was cross that the teacher didn't appear to have a grasp of basic spelling and grammar, which was followed by some examples of factual errors from teachers, what do you think?

How does that then sit with home educators??

My 2p worth as a parent (and not an "official" home educator but as a parent you do it all the time anyway!) is that I expect teachers to have a really good grasp of literacy and numeracy. If they don't have a wide vocabulary and correct use of language for the children to model, especially when very small, can't see that working. I would include TA and support staff in this too, and this often worries me.

However, particularly with older children of secondary age do you really need to have higher qualifications? Of course secondary teachers usually have a degree in the area that they teach, but is it really necessary? I know that my DD1 in year 12/13 did the AQA bacc which was an extended study, and this was researched at the local uni library etc. She certainly knew more than her teachers in that area- but they (and even I, with no qualification in that field) were able to guide her and direct her use of her own skills to produce an amazing piece of work.

Primary teachers teach all areas. They may have a degree but they teach everything (my DH has a degree in metallurgy LOL) there is an element of teaching things they don't really know but can work round (eg in PE you don't have to be sporty or have sporting interests to teach primary PE etc- you find out what the curriculum is and deliver it- maybe letting kids with a footballing interest explain the offside rule etc). I don't think this matters at all.

Home educators clearly educate in different ways, especially if this is "autonomous" then the role is clearly supporting the child in developing their own interests, but HE kids do GCSEs in subjects their parents aren't specialists and often do very well.

So how qualified do you expect teachers to be... and is society willing to pay them at the appropriate level??

Which aspect of this debate do you want to address first? There are so many directions to leap into.

I think that people who educate children should have five GCSEs including maths and english at grade C standard or above. For home ed a degree is pretty irrelevent. A teaching degree is more about class control than actual content.

If a home educator has a good basic education then they can self educate themselves. A basic grasp of literacy and numeracy is essential. Having three other GCSEs shows some basic education. Home education families I have met in real life have parents with degrees.

I think that it would be unreasonable to have a parent with major learning difficulites trying to home educate.

I think that people who educate children should have five GCSEs including maths and english at grade C standard or above.

Sorry, just wanted to clarify what you mean by that. Are you including HE'rs with that? Only I don't particularly subscribe to the notion that GCSEs are proof of anything other than retention of a revised script, which isn't the same thing as intelligence.

Also, there are a plethora of reasons why a HE parent might not have GCSEs, and it would not be prudent to assume that lack of ability is to blame.

Last year I taught quantum physics and astrophysics to my grandson, along with degree level geology. I have never learned any of those subjects even at secondary school level. That I am able to teach them to him is a reflection of the many excellent resources that are available to-day for the purpose including OU texts and full GCSE courses that you can buy.

My husband in a former life wrote training programmes for educating a professional organisation's new recruits. He also wrote manuals for the higher up staff's training. He maintained then that anyone could teach anything with suitable material provided they knew how to deliver that material to their particular audience.

Home educating parents know their audience very well.

Teachers in schools often do not have subject specific degrees but if they are competent teachers that does not matter. However, if they are not (as many are not)or they are faced with 30+ children and no time to porovide individually directed learning they are battling against the odds to provide a suitable education.

I would not be a school teacher for all the tea in China.

I think that home ed parents need the equivalent of five GCSEs. I also think that school support staff should have the same level of qualification. I feel that ANYONE who is involved in teaching children should have a basic grasp of maths and english and some ablity to learn themselves.

"Last year I taught quantum physics and astrophysics to my grandson, along with degree level geology. I have never learned any of those subjects even at secondary school level."

Inorder to do that you need a certain grasp of numeracy and literacy. If someone had major learning difficulties then they would not be able to learn quantum mechanics alongside their child. I think a good home educator needs the ablity to learn.

I suppose its possible that someone who has been home educated themselves would have an equivalent education, but it would be hard to prove. After all in the past education was passed sucessfully from parent to child without any bits of paper.

All the home educators I have met have degrees.

I have met a lot of teaching assistants and in my opinon the teaching assistants with a good general education do a better job than those with the mimimum qualifications.

Has anyone met a sucessful home educator who is functionally illiterate? I would have thought it would be a case of the blind leading the blind.

I have no formal qualification or equivalents, and I home-educate. I suppose it could be argued that I have the equivalent knowledge, but as you say, there really isn't any way of proving that. Unless I undertook examinations, obviously.

I haven't met any functionally illiterate HE'rs, though I have et many with varying levels of literacy and numeracy. I think a desire to learn is more important than previous education. Really, as long as you're three steps ahead of your child at any given time, anything is possible.

IMHO HE has the advantage that you can teach in the way that suits you and the child.

I'm a great believer in multisensory learning and in accessing one area of the curriculum through another. Eg if you want to make a cake you have to:

1. buy the ingredients (numeracy, geography )
2. have the right utensils
3. have a recipe (numeracy and literacy)
4. mix the ingredients (numercy and chemistry)
5. bake the cake (chemistry and physics)
6. let it cool (physics)

Other areas of cooking can be used to teach some RE, lots of science, some history, physiology, biology...............

So if you have a child who loves to cook you can teach with cooking, almost as a medium of instruction. You can do that with HE, but not with school / college.

I've got two O levels from 1976 and I home educate.

I have to ask what would have happened to my son if I hadn't been allowed to remove him from school four years ago on the grounds that I wasn't sufficiently well educated.

He has autism and ADHD which had been neglected throughout his time in school (he left beginning of Y5) and no sign of that changing. He also has hypermobility which affects his ability to write, though that wasn't recogised either and he was just forced to 'try harder'. He was a gibbering wreck at the time when we deregistered, angry and violent and going nowhere. He couldn't get through the day without numerous severe incidents, he was producing no academic work of value and he was universally disliked, even among staff. He had no quality social life outside of school as we spent evenings sorting out the mess from the day and preparing him for the next one.

Home education has allowed us to tailor his provision to his own specific needs. We can work on his social and personal development in ways that had never even occurred to school, and as a result he is thriving and making excellent progress in all areas.

Where would he be now, if I hadn't been allowed to home educate because I hadn't 5 GCSEs or equivalent?

sashh

Aah, the natural learning curve. Fantastic, isn't it?

Going on holiday now and will follow this thread on return.

Another interesting question is. Do you think there are ever any circumstances where a family should be actively forbidden from home educating?

Would it be useful to offer free courses (with a creche) to parents who home educate? I think its essential that any training course is volentary, but maybe it would help for home educators to learn about the latest research for teaching maths and english or prehaps advice on teaching science?

The thing is, there's no funding for home-educators, and every time the subject is approached about whether or not I'd like to push for it, my answer is no. Why? Because any time anything is given to HE'rs, there are stipulations and consequences of that. Anything offered to HE'rs at this stage would almost certainly result in more interference from LAs, more "monitoring" that I simply don't want to invite into the lives of other HE'rs, or my own, for that matter.

I fear that the introduction of "free, voluntary courses" could very easily lead to new legislation that enforced mandatory requirements for HE. The trouble is, in order to implement these guidelines, you'd have to allow LA's to have more power. As it stands, they have very little authority and minimal action that they can take which, in most cases, ends up overturned anyway.

The suggestion to have a minimal requirement for HE would give them more power to abuse. No LA wants children out of state schools, it's less cash in their little pot, and that's not good for the schools.

I'd rather just educate my children by myself, in my own way, be left the heck alone and wave at the LA from a distance every two years. And I know that my sentiment is shared by many, many HE'rs.

As for your other question, I don't know. I think there would be a point where a very severe learning impairment would probably encroach upon one's ability to effectively educate a child. That being said, there are many routes to HE and there doesn't have to be just one family member involved in the educating. I know of Uncles and Aunts who are happily engaged in their family's education. Grandparents, too. And if all else fails, outside tutoring is also available.

I don't think I'd like to see a family prevented from HEing unless their circumstances were extremely dire, which of course, would be rare.

sashh that is exactly the approach ds's teachers would take (and indeed do). I'd be surprised and disappointed by any school that didn't tbh.

It gets harder at secondary level, but it's not impossible.

"Has anyone met a sucessful home educator who is functionally illiterate? I would have thought it would be a case of the blind leading the blind."

Yes, I have. Just the one. Her teenaged dd reads 700 page novels and has MUCH better writing skills than her mum, I would guess about average compared to schoolchildren of her age. The girl has had a particular career in mind for some years, and is not planning on pursuing a highly academic path. She would be capable of taking an academic route and would develop the skills if she had the interest, I am sure.

Home education often does not involve active teaching. Besides the parent, a variety of other influences come into play. It isn't all down to mum.

With them, it isn't really a case of the blind leading the blind. It is a case of the blind standing by making encouraging noises while the formerly-blind develops vision naturally for herself. If there had seemed to be any problem with this process, I am sure that the mum would have sought out help for her daughter. She's good at that.

"Do you think there are ever any circumstances where a family should be actively forbidden from home educating?"

Yes: if the children are being abused or neglected. In that case they should be removed from the family home anyway, so it's a moot point. I cannot imagine what it would look like for someone to be an adequate and capable parent and yet be incapable of home educating. I see education as an essential part of parenting and cannot even separate the two in my mind.

Just to be controversial: Do you think there are ever any circumstances where a family should be actively forbidden from sending their children to school?

(It's an interesting legal point that parents are responsible for ensuring their children receive a suitable education, and this responsibility is not relinquished if they send their children to school. In theory, parents could be prosecuted for sending their children to a school which fails to meet the child's needs. As far as I know, this has never happened and probably never will. Is an LA likely to say "You have left your child in our crap school for years, despite knowing that we were failing to meet his needs, so we are now going to bring a prosecution against you. You could see that we weren't doing our job and so you should have home educated instead"?)

I think there is a difference between school teaching and autonomous HE.

The teacher basically says "I am right, what I say goes, this is a list of what what you are meant to learn, and if you keep interrupting me to question the correctness of my statements you will be pulled up for rudeness". Which is fair enough: there is no time in a classroom of 30 to stop questioning every thing the teacher says, and teachers for the sake of upholding discipline often do have to present themselves as the Ones Who Know.

So imo that does put a bigger burden on the teacher to be right, because the children are not encouraged to disbelieve him/her.

The HE-der otoh may well be saying "well, let's find out how this works, I don't know either, where do you think you could go?" SO the child is encouraged to question and not believe automatically.

"Just to be controversial: Do you think there are ever any circumstances where a family should be actively forbidden from sending their children to school?"

A family will be actively forbidden from sending a particular child to school if that child is suspended for appauling behaviour. It is possible an entire family might be suspended simulateously. However each child who be banned on an individual basis. I can't see any circumstances where a child would be actively forbidden from attending school because they are related to a badly behaved child.

I think for home ed to work you need the person leading the child's learning to have certain qualities.I have seen autonomous HE work well, but the parents have to work pretty hard to make it work. Ie. offering the opportunites and the experiences for the child.

I think there are parents who are good parents in all other respects, but they may lack the imagination or drive to make home ed work. Certainly there are people who are banned from teaching because they were incompetant at the job. (Ie. they failed their PGCE, NQT year or were sacked on the grounds of capablity)

I think there might be individuals who should be banned from being responsible for home education on the grounds of capablity. However that is not the same as saying the family should be banned from home ed. If money is no object then the family could employ a governess or prehaps responsibly for home ed could swop from one parent to another.

"
The HE-der otoh may well be saying "well, let's find out how this works, I don't know either, where do you think you could go?" SO the child is encouraged to question and not believe automatically."

My son's teacher does exactly that.

I agree that any good teacher will do that from time to time, ReallyTired.

But it is in the nature of classroom time management that a lot of the work will be set work- spelling lists to be learnt, lists of vocab provided by the teacher- which will then be tested by the teacher. And that is where it matters if the teacher actually knows.

Where I teach, we have a minority community who withdraw their children - particularly but not exclusively girls - to be 'home educated' from the end of middle school or earlier.

As the community has very, very few functionally literate adults, and those who are are mainly men who are not involved in child-rearing or education, I (and I should point out that I am an ex-home educator myself) remain unconviced that the 'home educated' teens within that community are receiving an education suited to their interests and aptitudes. They are being prepared for the community's expectations of their adult life - cleaning, childcare, preparation for marriage - which is in many ways the reason behind the withdrawal from school, but whether that is the education that these teens should be provided with, and whether it should be acknowledged as 'home education' as opposed to 'failure to attend school' is a different question.

(I shall say again that, in general, I am in favour of HE as an option, and know that it can be done successfully in many different ways. I am just not certain that 'withdrawal from school to prevent a female child being able to break away from a community's cultural norms' falls under the definition of HE)

teacherwith2kids prospective is interesting as you have both been a teacher and a home educator. What do you think would be the best way to enable the girls who are being "home educated" to get a proper education without unfairly penalising the rest of the home ed community.

"hey are being prepared for the community's expectations of their adult life - cleaning, childcare, preparation for marriage - which is in many ways the reason behind the withdrawal from school, but whether that is the education that these teens should be provided with, and whether it should be acknowledged as 'home education' as opposed to 'failure to attend school' is a different question."

I suppose we boil down to what is society's definition of education. Prehaps these families see taking the girls out of school as preparation for how they think adult life for women should be.

'withdrawal from school to prevent a female child being able to break away from a community's cultural norms' That?s a good twisted way of making parents trying to protect their kids from your undesirable cultural norms - into wronguns eh?

No proper talk can be had about this because your being all coy about who your talking about and not for the first time - when trying to turn a thread into bashing that community - and taking rights of them - so how does anyone challenge it - because you'll twist and turn about who you mean if called on it

Have the guts to name the community you seek to shame - instead of your whispering campain!

I don?t care what bits of paper they have - teachers who don?t know what the real reasons for some community?s not staying in school ? and so have no idea of what the real answers could be - or are knowingly twisting the truth to suit themselfs- should not be allowed to teach the children of those community?s ? because theyre a big part of the problem.

I teach - younger - members of the Traveller community, in a school which is regarded by the Traveller community as 'their' school and which they are extremely supportive of and positive about. About 1 in 5 of the children in the school I teach in is a Traveller, and every single Traveller family whose children I teach is overwhelmingly positive about the school and about our teaching and the way in which we value and celebrate their community and its way of life. Other adult Travellers who come into the school say the same. We have never had any kind of incident involving racism or other difficulties between the settled and Traveller communities in school, not so much as a name-calling.

Although I have put the reason given for taking girls out of school into my own paticular words, the reason I have given is an absolutely accurate representation of what Traveller mums have said to me and to others within the school:
"It's just our way. They need to learn our ways."
"They won't need book-learning to look after the trailer and bring up kids."
"I don't want them learning too much and wanting to leave, like."

I appreciate that other Traveller communities may give other reasons - the main one I have seen published is a wish to separate teenage boys and girls as they grow up - but I have never heard that reason from our local Traveller community and I HAVE heard all the ones I quote above.

I have no desire to 'bash' the Traveller community. The Traveller children I teach are the best-behaved, most respectful, most eager to learn, most well-mannered, most enthusiastic children I am lucky enough to teach. The only question I raise, and would ever raise, is whether taking girls out of school at 13 is genuinely home education, or actually denies them a proper education, especially as some of the Traveller girls I teach genuinely WANT to go on and get more education but know they will not be allowed to.

I tend not to name the community because I find that others tend to have a strong reaction simply to the name 'Traveller', which can obscure the particular points that I might make - ie I am, in general, trying to avoid invoking the racial prejudice that the name can bring forth in others, as in my experience such prejudice has no basis in fact in most instances.

Is it ok for me to be saying people from the Black community sharpen their teeth for - reasons Ive decided are bad- when really I'm talking about a small group of Zulus and a bunch who've told me some reasons they've been fed all their lives - they may or may not believe- that stop the questioning - and should I expect all black people to be happy about the stigmas Im causing them all there?

You'll know well enough as a teacher there's no such race as Traveller any more than there is a race of Black people. I can guess which actual race coming under that name you mean - its the one results for fell very badly in 2010 - but do you really think it's ok to smear all from that and all the others -with those comments wether you name the race or just leave people to guess? Doesn't make it any righter.

Most people from the travelling community's dont want to offend Gaudja's by saying exactly what it is they're trying to avoid in your culture - because there's no way of doing it without offending - why I let it go when these comments and hurtful ones made by another poster - came up before - even though I was raged.
I still dont want to be offending - but you are offending me and many others with this - and reminding us why we're better away from schools alltogether.

We've had some terrible things with teachers - but Im not around trying to smear them all - for what some have done - and my belief of why.

Girls leave the community's all the time - unmarried or are married out - with or without a 'proper' = Gaudja - education. It doesnt come good for most.

Lots of travelling groups are fighting for different kinds of decent education - not be lumped into other groups - and the right to use our own language for starters - and manys doing it through Home ed - trying to keep our culture - away from things we dont want - and be educated - and fighting these claims with LEAs all over the place - along with claims there's no need for NATTs to do secondary level because we don't need/want it - and the writing of allsorts onto PHER's - saying we dont need anything more.

Your saying you dont name the community but you know everyone knows.
I think the reply was - I know of the community of which you speak - or close last time - then a nasty claim close to your own- by another poster- so no weights held to me that you say you dont want to invoke racial prejudice - so you just wont say the name when making the accusation - and that's going to make it all ok? If you really think that - please think again cause it doesnt work.

If you care about prejudice please stop doing something that adds to it on here - and start educating those kids and parents about what education they can still get - and what use it could be put to in there way of life - if they dont go secondary.

Sorry don't know why its done a line through reasons I've decided are bad - I mean reasons I've decided are bad to be there!

Thank you, Drom, both for reminding me of what I need to think about, and for giving me a practical way forward in terms of the girls and families I know. I do, genuinely, appreciate it. I do also appreciate that the true reason for school removal is unlikely to be given to us as outsiders.

I will be very careful in future both to be very clear about which community I speak of - our local, long-established, settled Roma community (none, however, speak any other language, and they refer to themselves as Travellers which is why I do too) - and not to generalise any further.

To ask an open question, rather than make any assumptions - what do you believe would make the best education for secondary age girls from such Roma communities? And what help should 'society' in general be giving you to achieve that?