Was spelling *really* considered very, very important in schools in the past?

[Takver]

I'm asking this because I often see throw-away comments along the lines of 'of course in the past students wouldn't have been able to get away with / get high grades with poor spelling'.

But then my DMum who cannot spell to the extent that her shopping lists often need translation passed the 11+ with flying colours and went to what would now I'm sure be called a superselective grammar. (Apparantly they had one token working class girl, one token black girl and one token Jewish girl in every year - she was the working class one for her year ).

And when I asked how this could be, she says that her recollection was that spelling never counted for more than 2 or 3 % of the marks at any point, therefore it never damaged her exam prospects. Indeed the main suggestion of her teachers to deal with it - rather than remedial teaching as I'm sure she would be getting at school today - was that she should look for a job where she would have a secretary . . .

Takver Sat 23-Jun-12 12:33:55
Cory, is Swedish phonetic? My experience in Spain is that everyone can spell apart from those with very little education (quite common there in older people), who mainly make the same errors with confusable sounds."

Swedish is largely phonetic, but less so than Spanish.

But we had the same expectations on us when we learnt English, that mis-spelling a word would be embarrassing. Which is why I am the one correcting dh's English spelling, not the other way round- because I was given to understand that I had to be able to spell any language I was going to use. None of my educated Swedish contemporaries seemed to find it difficult to learn to spell English either.

Perhaps it is easier if you have learnt a (more or less) phonetic language first. For us spelling English was mainly a question of memorising long lists of vocabulary every week, as part of learning the words in the first place. If we couldn't spell a word that was proof that we hadn't learnt it.

I think it is very much a question of attitude: for me, mis-spelling involves a loss of face, for dh it doesn't.

Did anyone here get taught phonetic spelling first and then go on to have troubles spelling properly later? I knew someone who had first learnt phonetic spelling (in English) and they were never able to spell properly after that because they kept reverting to the phonetic.
But I don't know whether that's a usual situation, or whether others who first learnt to spell phonetically were ok switching to the "real" spelling afterwards.

I went to private schools from 1978. From age 6 or 7 there was a spelling test of up to a dozen words, every Monday, Wednesday and Friday morning. Every spelling mistake was underlined and then you had to copy out the word three times before doing the rest of your work. It certainly made sure I know all the tricky words, but I'm a good speller anyway. I don't know if it made the bad spellers any better - certainly some people would have thirty words to write out 3x each, plus all sentences with grammar mistakes to rewrite, every week after doing an essay for homework.

I suspect it made you less careless but not learn much more.

Having said all of that, everytime I got a spelling wrong at secondary school (a significant spelling, that I should have known) I do remember having to write it out 50 or 100 times, during my break time. This could be related to my pretty good spelling / pedantry, today. Does that still happen? (I'm an 80s, kid btw so not that old!)

Does it still happen? I think it must have been unique to your school, summer! In my secondary (in the '60s) we had to write out spelling mistakes 3 times. To put it in context, it was a selective school and I would have assumed most of us were reasonable spellers anyway.

Spelling was prioritised and poor spelling was sigmatised to try and make you improve. But if you are dyslexic no amount of that will help - I was lucky if I got one out of ten in the tests. However, of my cohort I am the most successful three As at A level, two degrees and now running my own successful business.
Spelling is still awful - it has never held me back.

^Did anyone here get taught phonetic spelling first and then go on to have troubles spelling properly later? I knew someone who had first learnt phonetic spelling (in English) and they were never able to spell properly after that because they kept reverting to the phonetic.
But I don't know whether that's a usual situation, or whether others who first learnt to spell phonetically were ok switching to the "real" spelling afterwards.^

A friend of mine was a nanny to a girl who had done ITA in infant school. She was in Y3 and her spelling was fine - actually pretty good for her age. There are poor spellers, regardless of how they were taught, though perhaps those her learned ITA would think that was the reason.

I recall spelling being very important in my primary school in the early 1970's. It was important to the exclusion of everything else. I used to love writing and was quite good looking back much better than I thought but I was always being corrected for my spelling. One day I was told to write out "because" 10 times because I had spelt it wrong once in my story. I wrote it out and I learned how to spell "because" but I stopped writing altogether. I havent written except the shortest notes since.

Now we have spellcheckers and I do not think spelling is very important. I think it is over rated. I have heard it said many top selling authors cannot spell. I think spelling has no relationship to any intelligence . Its just an ability to spell.

Ssash, me too. We got a thwack with a long wooden ruler for every misspelling in tests (or wrong or hesitant times tables). I became fine at the tests but I am still not a great speller.

Spelling was important. We had to learn all incorrect spellings.
There was no such thing as a spell checker- just your brain.
I had weekly spelling tests throughout primary school- a very long time ago.

We had weekly spelling and times table tests in Primary school (KS1). We used to lie on the main hall floor and had 20 of each. 1979 ish.

Makes me laugh now when people moan about 'constant' testing now

We had weekly reading "tests"- had to stand at the front of the class in groups of about 4, in a line, then read from a book. We were marked out of 10- 1 mark off for every stumble or mistake. This was in the equivalent of year 6 .

Absolute torture for poor readers.

"I started at primary school in 1973 (yes, I am old) "

And I am even older. I started primary school in 1965 and spelling was very important, as were learning our times tables. Luckily the primary school DD went to was also hot on spelling and times tables. She is in year 7 now and it has paid dividends.

I admit that I don't like to see a badly written piece of writing - partly because spelling and punctuation were drummed into me at school and also because my background is publications and marketing. I have spent many a boring hour proofreading sales literature and amending spelling and punctuation mistakes.

Would you buy from a catalogue that looked like it had been put together by illiterate people?

at my primary school (1969 to 1976) we had daily spelling tests right through. I still have the books of words I was expected to learn.

Conversely, when I was at primary school between 1958 and 1964, I never experienced a single spelling test.

"Conversely, when I was at primary school between 1958 and 1964, I never experienced a single spelling test."

They must have brought them in a year later

LOL, I think we have just established that different schools did things differently - as would be expected really. All of us can speak anecdotally about our own schooldays; what we can't do is extrapolate that that was how it was done in those days.

I was at school through the 60s into the 70s. I passed the 11+, but there was no real spelling in that.

We were always marked down for bad spelling, grammar, punctuation etc etc throughout senior school, and those who couldn't "get it right" had to do CSEs instead of O levels.

I have no idea how universal that was though.

I started school in 1977 at an ILEA progressive/bit hippy school. There was not much emphasis on spelling, although we did learn a few spelling rules.

Went to a selective secondary, where they did remark on my poor spelling/wondered if I'm dslexic but didn't make a big deal of it, as it's not a major deal in exam marking schemes.

I think spelling has come back partly "for show" - as in schools that send home weekly spellings and wear uniform are perceived as being better than schools that don't. I asked DS's teacher what the point of weekly spelling was, given that many kids can learn the words for a week then forget them. She said "it's expected by parents"

I think spelling has come back partly "for show"

I think you are right. And, I would include in that, the spelling in NC tests. I am sure in the past, that spelling was judged as part of the overall presentation of written work, but there was no separate spelling element in formal exams including the 11+. It seems far more useful to teach phonics and more complex spelling rules, rather than lists of random spellings.

So, do you mean to say that pupils don't lose marks for bad spelling and grammar in exams, especially English exams? Also, when learning a foreign language wouldn't the basics of English grammar help?

I realise that in this day of spellcheck being able to spell is less important, but my boss at work says that when she receives a cv that has even one spelling mistake on it she discards it immediately.

I am old fashioned and still think that spelling is important, but it is essential for my line of work anyway.

I don't really know to what extent, if any, pupils lose marks for poor spelling and grammar in English exams. I was really thinking of the specific spelling element at the end of the KS2 Writing test and saying there was nothing like that when I was at school.

I would agree that spelling is important, obviously more so in some roles than others. I also know some people have real difficulties, so what annoys me most is carelessness - and that includes not dealing with the errors highlighted by spellcheckers.

WJEC didn't give a monkey in 1984
I have eight grade A O'levels including two for English and one for history which was entirely essay based.

I'm actually mildly dyslexic (which no one noticed back then) and my spelling is truly awful.
My grammar and punctuation were fairly reasonable, just rusty now.

I started school in yr 1 in Sep 1973, only spent two terms there but can't recall doing any actual work at all. I could read already so was just left alone.

Moved to France where handwriting was supremely important at first, spelling later (the sancrosanct weekly dictée!). My handwriting now is atrocious but my spelling is very good. I'm not sure but I think that some people are just naturally good spellers (maybe a visual memory helps?) and will "get it' regardless of teaching, whilst others may never remember spellings despite years of teaching. It doesn't seem to matter at all any more

I think spelling still matters, and even with spellcheck you need some knowledge to make it work, while handwriting has obviously diminished in importance. I would agree that there are many people who are naturally good spellers and think that it is visual memory that is the key. There also seem to be a fair few posters on mumsnet who, in their perfectly spelt posts, tell us what atrocious spellers they are.

When my mum was at school, she had a smack on the hand with a ruler for poor spelling. I have never, ever seen my mum make a spelling mistake.