The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

Jabed - I would be very very suprised if you could find any school who took the cheapest, rather than the best option from a pool of applicants for a job.

Our ex Head of Science is a PhD. When I say "ex", I mean that he was demoted. He still teaches at the school, but is no longer HoD, as he simply wasn't good enough. The job went to a totally inspirational teacher, who is at least 15 years younger, has fewer qualifications, but is an indisputably outstanding teacher. Having a PhD did not (and does not, IMO) make a good teacher.

I am sorry ET but we are justgoing to have to agree to completely disagree.

I know from experience that a lot of state schools are on tight budgets and that they are selecting staff according to cost not quality.

I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder and smell the coffee out there.

Jabed, I am not the one with a chip.

Your "experience" as head of how many state schools exactly? Because unless you've got THAT kind of experience, this is yet more anecdotal crap.

I teach at a state primary. I only have a 2.2. I don't suppose the fact that I achieved this through four years of studying, rather than the expected six, with the OU, while continuing to work full time six days a week will explain anything. Maybe it's because I wanted to challenge myself and deliberately chose modules in subjects that I would find difficult. I could possibly have taken an easier route, studied only one module a year instead of two, and got a higher grade. In fact, by the time I finished the last two simultaneous courses I'd given birth to my first child and did my final exams when she was seven weeks old.

Does my degree make me a worse teacher than my colleagues with a 2.1 or first? I don't think so.

But if anyone cast doubt, I might mention my Mensa membership and my Masters in Education, alongside the attainment of pupils I teach.

Incidentally, for a while I worked as Head of ICT in an independent school. I took over the role from someone who had a PhD. I was often told by SMT that I was far more effective than he was as he made everything seem so difficult!

Your "experience" as head of how many state schools exactly? Because unless you've got THAT kind of experience, this is yet more anecdotal crap

I have been in management and seen applications and been involved in appontments in schools for the last 10 years ET. But dont let that stop you from trying to discredit anothers opinion by personal attack here to bolster your own

Me too.

But don't let that stop you from making bizarre personal attacks on someone whose opinion differs to yours.

It never ceases to amaze me how many posters know someone with a Ph>D who is such a bad teacher that they had to take over and show how it was done. Yet I can say I know a lot of good teachers with Ph.D's. I am not saying it makes them good but I am not going to discount it. It certainly does not make them bad.

Such teachers seem to be very good in independent schools and total rubbish in state ones - if the comments here are anything to go by. I value my colleagues with Ph.D's as do my other colleagues. We value them and judge them by the job they do, not their qualifications alone. Is this because in independent schools we value their skills and are not looking for their jobs and in state schools there is always someone in the wings , less qualified but so much better I ask . It does seem to fit the evidence being presented here.

Jabed- you state that you do not have and never did have a clue about your state school colleagues' qualifications, yet you claim to have been involved in making decisions about appointments. How can that be? Anyway, you've been in the independent sector for quite some time, I believe, so how can you assert that you know so much about how state schools appoint teachers?

ET - I said I was willing to agree to disagree, it was you who seemed to want a fight and questioned my experience.

I gave you ONE example of a teacher with a PhD who wasn't great at his job. It's a fact- he wasn't. It's a huge leap for you to take from that that state schools don't value PhDs. My point was that academic qualifications do not always make a good teacher. The new Head of Science was SN external appointment- not someone waiting in the wings.

I don't think I'm the one with the shoulder chip.

I am still questioning your experience. You seem not to be able to answer the question concerning the apparent discrepancies in your posts.

As explained above, I have a PhD - as a qualification per se it doesn't make me any better or worse at my job.

As something which shows I have a logical mind, a determination to carry things through despite all setbacks, and a deep perfectionist streak, maybe it says something about how I approach everything, including my teaching!

(Oh, and it makes no difference to how much I am paid - I get paid according to my years of experience in teaching (as I should) not according to my qualification. So there is no 'pay' issue in PhD vs non PhD teachers, so if we are good as teachers, we get recruited and retained, and if we aren't, we aren't. No cost issue either way)

I think the only time that money would come into it would be if 2 candidates were equally ideal for the position available, then the cheapest one would be chosen.

OK - so I fibbed slightly because I didnt want to dis respect my state school colleagues or disillusion parents reading this. I am always conscious its public. I was not 100 % sure of the older ones or those who were there before my appointment. I was certain of those who came in after I was appointed. Since we had a high turnover of staff that was quite a lot.

Many of the younger ones I knew the qualifications of. They had degrees or B.Eds. Mostly the latter. Many were teaching in subjects that were not their degree - for example geographers and historians teaching citizenshipand ICT and art teachers doing FT and ICT and various other things. Many were 2:2 classifications. What really suprised me often was the number of older new entrants we had who did not have A levels. They had often come through on access to HE courses.

I know that we were instructed by the head to appoint newly qualified teachers because of budgets in the time before I left , so what I suggested there was 100% true.

Most were from the local HE College and the local university. of course having taught for many years in the university I also knew what standard of student we tood into the B Ed courses as I often worked for the school of education. I was not part of it - I just taught on some of its modules. So I know from that too what the general level of qualifications were.

Appointments in my current school are made firstly according to degree - we always ask for a good graduate. Then according to experience and track record. Then according to teaching qualification. We do expect all three.

One thing I often noticed in my latter days in the school was that we had a large number of applicants but never top drawer quality. They were all very much the same. In my present school we have fewer applicants but always tip top ones.

Mrs Guy - "many state teachers would have difficulty in indies as they then cannot hde behind crowd control and actually have to get down to real teaching, and being challenged by intellectual curiosity and enquiring minds"

I find this comment insulting in the extreme. Often socially deprived students are criticised for lacking social experiences as they have to live within thier own 'social bubble'. What do you do by sending your child to an 'elite' school? You put them into another extremely limited 'social bubble' - very different, but no less damaging. All you gain by paying is not better teachers but the 'network' and I'm really not sure that this is good for the long term stability of our country.

The most enquiring minds and intellectual curiosity I have experienced in a very broad ranging career are those bright children in ordinary schools who are being given the opportunity, by imaginative and aspirational teachers (from all uni backgrounds) to think beyond themselves and because they don't have to conform to a social elite they are able to ask questions others don't even dare to ask. Having spent time observing in a professional capacity in a number of our most elite schools, I have not witnessed the same broad bredth of intellegent questionning.

breadth

Teacher with 2 kids - Let me clarify I was nottalking about qualifications when I said cost was a factor. I simply meant we were told to appoint an NQT because they were cheap. That meant any experienced teachers were out of the frame. This is not the case in my current schoolwhere we look for the most experienced first. It does cost more because our staff salaries are all on average 35K + where in state school the majority of the staff I knew of were appointed because they were bottom of the scale ( 21 K at the time)

Jabed, thank you for admitting that you tell lies.

Your previous assertions, then, were based on very limited personal experiences in one school.

Having experience of both sectors I have to say that the independent sector is more interested in academic qualifications. They want you to have a first or a 2:1 as a minimum and they expected me to have at least an MA and preferably to be a published author in my subject. A higher proportion of staff have been to Oxbridge and most to Russell Group. Most staff do have a PGCE , however as I think the PGCE is too easy to pass I am not sure that is always such a great claim.

State schools don't have such expectations, the one I work for at the moment expects you to have a 2:1 in a related subject, but there are a handful with a 2:2. I doubt they would get a position like a HOD and i suspect they would have to go for a pastoral promotion. I don't know everyone's level of qualification but I would guess that more have a 1st than a 2:2. I would say a much smaller number have an MA and no one I know has a higher qualification than that.

I use my degree out days in my teaching job, it must depend on your degree and your subject.

ET - I am admitting that I dont always think it is good to tell everyone exactly what goes on in education. But then I think you need a healthy dose of scepticism . I dont think they would be happy with that. I know as a parent I am not happy with what I know goes on in state schools. I think I have a responsibility to be careful how much I admit. But I think too that it is not acceptable to do what you are doing and present a rose tinted picture. I think in your own way you are as misleading as I have been - but you cant bulls the BullS** ! Hence I know even if I am morepolite than to challenge you directly ( a lebel of good manners you have not reached it seems) . I think it is called ( as out esteemed leaders and politicians would say and who am I to be different?) being economic with the truth

I use my degree most days.

I use my degree most days in my job too - and the Ph.D most days. What I dont use very often these days is my training in crowd control :)

NiceH,

But would you say that, by focusing on academic qualifications, the independent sector gets better teachers? Or is it that for 'public relations', having staff who are better qualified on paper is prioritised?

Or is it that, for all the reasons discussed above, the level of 'teaching skills' (as in 'advanced knowledge of and skills in pedagogy') required in independent schools may be lower, so it is possible to prioritise 'paper qualifications / subject knowledge' over 'quality of teaching / knowledge of pedagogy' as the latter is likely to be less important in classes which are more homogenous, compliant and receptive to 'transmission of information' teaching?

It gets teachers that are different, or using different skills, as like me many teachers move between sectors.

There are teachers in tough schools who hide behind crowd control and it would be daft to suggest otherwise. Not a huge number but I have worked with them. In some schools they are just so relieved if you turn up every day and "get the buggers to behave" that they turn a blind eye to you failing to stretch the pupils. Just as there are staff in the independent sector who could not control the behavior of many classes in sink schools. I suspect this is a greater number than the poor state school teachers hiding behind behavior issues. They are a different skills set.