The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

Actually it's just struck me why it happens - it's linked to playing instruments of course. My DS's school choir is peopled by boys who all play instruments and can all sightread easily and comfortably.

Using Xenias percentage quote, that tells us that 8.5% of the school age population are receiving weekly music lessons in the state sector as opposed to 3.5% of the school age population receiving weekly music lessons in the private sector. This based on the oft quoted statistic of 93% attend state, 7% attend private. You can make statistics say whatever you wish them to. Actually, I'm quite shocked that ONLY 50% of privately education children recieve weekly music lessons. I would have expected that percentage to be far higher. Is it really true that only 50% of parents who are wealthy enough to afford private education, and therefore music lessons, choose this for their children? What on earth is going on in the private sector that such a mediocre percentage of parents believe music education to be important?

@Xenia Dvorak is Romantic, not classical.

Dear me. How the standards in private schools must be falling. That's pretty basic general musical knowledge :(

@hopefully well, maybe that is true of your area. It's not true of the London borough in which I grew up (where my old school is still the best school for music by far, easily outstripping the private schools) and its not true of the county in which I now live where in fact my DDs tend to 'whack' the competition from the private schools in the singing classes (and in DD1s case, the instrumental classes too).

@Xenia, both DD1's and DS's schools have full SATB choirs (plus boy trebles from y7 and 8) without needing the parents to join in. There are more than enough enthusiastic and talented singers (DS's school also has a renowned gospel choir).

idontthink - Your posting handle was wisely chosen :o

Not that I agree with your statistical musings but in your mind, why does being wealthy = wanting your child to have weekly music lessons?

Wealthy parents send their kids to private schools for a variety of reasons. It's a bit simplistic to assume that all want their kids to be academic and musical.

I don't think that music at private schools are superior to that at state schools but IME the music at selective schools generally tend to be superior to that at non-selective schools.

Most selective schools allocate x places to kids with a high musical ability. Often you have to be minimum Grade 5 to be confident of securing a place via this route. It stands to reason that such a school will have a higher intake of pupils of high musical ability.

APMF - Ok, my statistical musings were a little on the dodgy side, but then trying to make a direct comparison between state and private school on the issue of music lessons (which require a great deal of funding) is equally dodgy.

I would always assume that well educated and affluent parents were interested in cultural enrichment and were aware of the obvious benefits that learning a musical instrument has for a child, both in intellectual and social development. Do I really need to explain this?

"I would always assume that well educated and affluent parents were interested in cultural enrichment .... Do I really need to explain this?"

I like how you managed to demonstrate a rather simplistic perspective on the subject of weathy people and at the same time manage to be patronising about other people's seeming inability to comprehend what is 'obvious' to you. :o

Not all wealthy people are well educated and not all well educated and affluent parents aspire for their children to be culturally enriched. You'll be surprised how many such kids spend their spare time listening to pop music, playing sports or just watching TV or playing console games.

Yeah, I spent quite a bit of my youth listening to pop music and watching TV. My kids certainly listen to pop music (well, for them it's folk music, show times or jazz rather than the current pop or rock stuff but still....), do sport and watch Telly . It doesn't mean any of us are culturally diminished. Quote the reverse.

Show TUNES. Blooming iPad.

And, incidentally, you are expected to sing more than just Leider or motets for ABRSM singing exams. For her grade 7 next week DD1 will indeed be singing a German song (in German) and an Italian song from the classical period (in Italian) but she will also be singing a folk song and a Jerome Kern song (which she chose because of its geek credentials). DD2 will be singing a proper show tune (from Mary Poppins) together with other songs including again an Italian number and a folk song. A good singer is one who can sing in several styles, not just one.

As dd did two years at a state school I would just like to note that the music teaching there was second to none even if the piano needed a total overhaul. The academics were find by and large; what was not fine was the management of behaviour in relation to a small but significant minority. That for me was the difference and it is a great shame because excuse after excuse does not help those who cannot behave and will not help them to function in life beyond school. Neither does keeping them in main stream schools where staff have neither the time nor the skills to help them do justice to the teaching profession and the results it achieves.

Well you won't get many base voices amoingst the children at primary schools, that was my point about ensuring you recruit teachers who can sing or have parents happy to take part. Classical music is the term used to distinguish from other types. Of course you can divide it down further but it's perfectly accurate to say Bach classical music, Beatles pop etc.

You all know my point. It is that plenty of state primaries seem to offer 100% not classical music.

(And yes the final of 4 pieces in singings exams is more recent a piece although you can choose from a reasonable range even for that option - I am certainly not against schools doing a range of music but when it is all 100% dross stuff it's not giving the children exposure to good music.)

Anyway the bottom line seems to be that the state school parents are happy with their teachers and music provision in state schools and the private school pupils are all delighted too so everyone is content.

On the wealthy people are cultured - gosh no. Watch last week's programme about Queen Mary on iplayer. Poor her marries into the very very non cultured at that time British royal family who just want to shoot birds. Or look at all the nouveau riche parents dripping in gold chains (the men) at many a private school. Money and interest in classical music do not necessarily go together. Of course I am not saying there is one objective correct type of culture. I live in a borough which is 18% hindu and Jewish and Muslim culture are huge too. I am just saying depending on where a child may end up it cna help it in career terms to have things in common with the people with whom it may work -0 who may be unemployed Liverpudlians or may be in your choir or ski with you.

Married mentions behaviour in some schools. One issue will be in private schools it is easier to have a child removed. I don't see why they cannot do that more in the state sector and the number 1 complaint from clever teenagers ins ome state schools is disruption of the lessons by other children. Take them out of class after say 3 complaints about one child and have their lessons elsewhere. It would probably be the easiest cheapest way of enhancing state education in some schools.

Sutton Trust (Lampl) writes in today's Times by the way that they want clever poor children to have their fees paid at private schools. They say only 6 privtae schools in 10 years have joined the state system and only because they were failing. They want Open Access on merit. 80 leading independent schools would move to that system if offered by the state.

@Xenia while it is arguably accurate to say Bach is classical (late Bach anyway, early Bach is obviously baroque) to call Dvorak classical is factually incorrect. As you should know, and would know if you knew as much about music as you sometimes claim. I have no doubt you are happy with what you are paying through the nose for. Perhaps less happy to admit that state school parents who can will also be paying through the nose for the exact same instrument and voice teachers (and their pupils will likely have longer lessons and a better experience since there will be fewer of them due to the high cost of music lessons - which are the same in state or private schools, the private schools don't let the peri teachers charge them more). If I was paying a fortune for my DCs schools as well as their music tuition though I'd be more than a little worried if the academic music staff at those schools were telling them that Dvorak was a classical composer. :( I'd be querying their qualifications to be honest. Of course perhaps you are happy with musical ignorance so long as it has the correct snob value.

Well, they used to have the assisted places scheme in private schools for that reason but it was abolished - presumably because they felt the money could be used better elsewhere. Personally, I'd much rather my child was grammar educated than the token poor child in a rich school, for social and psychological reasons - who wuld want their child to be the only one who could never afford the 'status' items valued in those schools or who lived in the embarrassingly small house/in nastier area? I love the fact that we feel rather rich at dd's school! - at their (state) primary in nice area we always felt like the poorest of the poor (we're actually kind of middling...). But her grammar is much more reflective of the real world in financial, racial, social terms... which I prefer.

Re music, I was out yesterday at my kids' primary school concert (included those who had left in earlier years as it was a big anniversary do). The one piece that blew me away was not one of the grade 8 classical pieces (which were there) but the 16 year old pop singer singing her own composition, accompanied by a friend on guitar - her voice was like a young Kate Bush and it sent shivers down my spine. Great song too and amazing stage presence. Definitely a major talent and star of the future. The idea that classical = good; anything else = 'dumbing down' is just weird, really.

Surely only someone really lacking in social (class?) confidence would need to brand every taste that was not overly highbrow as worthless? Most people enjoy a range of cultural forms - including, Xenia, the 'posh' set that you aspire for your children to join. The idea that the upper classes listen only to classical music or disdain football is simply ludicrous. One of my DH's friends went to Eton and is now a dreadlocked DJ who makes a living playing dance music. There is nothing wrong with classical music - but it's not innately 'superior' to every other type of music; just a different taste. I was very relieved when my dd switched from classical clarinet to jazz clarinet - much nicer noise, IMHO.

Football is actually the Lingua Franca in the city. If Xenia had stayed in the city rather than setting up her own firm in her own home she might be more aware of this. Although I report directly to my firms 'global' chairman on some issues we talk weekly about footy issues. It's also a key 'in' for communicating with colleagues across Europe. In the US, not so much. There are other themes - music is one, as it happens, as is art appreciation, but footy is the key thing.

I suppose, in a nutshell, that what I find odd in your posts, Xenia, is not your preference for classical music or singing in Latin, which is perfectly valid as a reflection of your personal taste. It's your insistence that all children should learn these, as (almost) all children in private schools currently do learn these, and that without these 'essential' social skills, other people's children will be left behind in the race for jobs. I see no evidence whatsoever for these assumptions - kids in private schools have a varied range of cultural interests and hobbies, as do kids in state schools, and I have yet to see a top job where singing in Latin or playing a classical instrument to grade 8 was actually required (other than specifically musical jobs, obviously!). Music is a wonderful hobby and give pleasure to millions but to get all competitive about it sems to miss the point; it's like getting competitive about tastes in food or sexual preferences.

Let people choose their own sensual delights!

Well this has all become rather peculiar!

But quite fun... :)

Xenia is very entertaining. I was reading out bits of her posts to my dh yeaterday, who wouldn't believe she was real. I think she is, though. She represents all those, like Michael Gove, who think 1950s style education is tops, with no experience of teaching but a very clear idea of how children should be taught... All rather interesting.

@bread Actually, I agree with Xenia (I think - by which I mean I think this is what she thinks, I know it's what I think. IYSWIM) that all young people should be exposed to early, baroque, classical, romantic, impressionist and modern orchestral/instrumental/vocal music. They should be given a chance to play an instrument, to attend concerts, to see what they like. Obviously the less Stockhausen or Schoenberg the better. But in general. Nobody should be restricted from experiencing a particular type of music 'because they won't like it' or 'because it's not relevant'. It's not necessary to sing in Latin to be a successful musician, composer or conductor or teacher or just person who likes 'serious' music. Most of the musicians composers conductors and teachers I know see all of music as a continuum.

The snobbish attitude displayed by Xenia and others towards music in state schools is very disappointing.

But the thing is that a huge part of the perceived value of things like Latin and classical music, for some people who pay for them, is that they are available to an elite, and they mark you out as a Certain Type - not saying they should, but it's true - so where would all the people who paid for them be if indeed they were taught in all schools?

Where did I suggest that listening to/performing pop music isn't cultural enrichment? It wasn't me who said that.

APMF - please don't jump to conclusions about my social status. Of course, not all wealthy people are well educated, in fact many of them are not. However, I would suggest that you read the thread from the top - it is, afterall, all about private school teachers being more qualified than state school teachers and all the reasons for why, and why this is necessary.

I can assure you that I am one of the 'wealthy' - although in my case I have earned this position by being well educated (in the state sector) and being aspirational - no silver spoons in my camp!

I'm sorry that some are so offended at my shock over wealthy parents lack of understanding of the relevance of music education (of all genres, NOT purely classical!), but my shock is no less great.

I agree with you, Metabilis - but that is not what I saw Xenia as saying. Rather than suggesting that all children should have the opoortunity to hear/learn/play a variety of music and at least one musical instrument, she seemed to be saying that anything other than her definition of 'classical' music (different to yours, I know) was a waste of space. Which I think is as narrow-minded as kids who won't listen to classical music because it's 'boring and old-fashioned'. And she also seemed to be implying that her preferred musical education was only available to kids in private schools. Which I think is wrong, too.

Needless to say, I regards her conclusion - that all mums ought to get high-paying jobs so they can afford private education for their dcs, or they will have 'failed' them, is nonsense, too.

@TOSN They are taught in state schools. Perhaps not all state schools. But then they aren't taught in all private schools either.

@Bread it's not my definition, it is the (official) definition. This is a point worth making because Xenia's house is a little bit built on shifting sand.