The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

As a parent I have cast an eye over similar lists - and the Habs boys list looks fine. If you stuck someone in there with a degree from Gloucester University I would raise an eyebrow. I would. Wouldn't most private sector parents? I suppose I am guilty of the charge of snobbery (academic) but I'd wonder if they had the smarts to be teaching secondary-age DCs who would want to be stretched etc particularly at A level.

Hopefully - what is your problem with Gloucester University? I bet you don't have the first fucking clue where it comes in the Good University ratings. You come across as a snob. As I have already stated, my departmental colleague is a graduate of Gloucester and she is an outstanding teacher.

x-posted with teacher

I've conceded multiple times on this thread that academic qualifications do not necessarily make for a good teacher. But the thread title here is about 'best qualified' which is not the same as 'best teacher'. And given that parents do not have the luxury of going into a classroom to assess the quality of the teaching personally, we have to rely upon 'best qualified' and the inspection reports and academic results to guide us.

We wantboth - those who went to good places who are like us and probably have our accent, background etc and secondly who are also good terachers. If they are bad teachers they get sacked more easily in the private than state sector - which is another reason the teachers can end up being the best ones.

On the whole it is harder to get into good universities which is why employers of all kinds fish frmo the higher academic pool. Lots of people get no A levels or DDD at A elevel and go to ex polys. They usually aren't very bright so it's wise to play safe and recruit from the better places. Of course plenty of children do not work hard at school and get bad results and go to not very good places and then turn things around and are great at their work but if you have a heap of CVs and a huge load of interviewing to do you might as well play safe.

Obviously I agree with hopefullyr. Hoever if a state or priv ate school have the occasional odd ball as it were who is a great teacher but hadn't done that great at exams but was bright then that's fine too with me. I don't need identikit teachers who are all the same but I would still want the majority to be like those on the Habs list.

I have not yet found a state school which puts the details out on a website although parents on here say they give them out at the schools. I wonder what the difference is? Both involves publication.

Evil,

I have been wondering whether (to a first approximation) the follwong generalisation might be applicable:

• Selective schools will often have more teachers with 'good looking on paper' non-teaching qualifications (e.g. first degrees) both because of the PR aspect and because they may be a good fit to the type of teaching required (narrow range of attainment, narrow range of pedagogy required)

• Non-selective schools will often have more teachers with better teaching qualifications (e.g. PGCEs from very well regarded training providers), though with a wider range of non-teaching qualifications, because they may need a better knowledge of pedagogy to succee in such environments.

The title of this thread has been unhelpful, really, because it doesn't define whether a teacher is more highly qualified because

• they have a good non-teaching degree OR
• because they are highly qualified IN TEACHING

Selective schools may have more of the former, and non-selective schools more of the latter, to a first approximation.

Hopefully - that says an awful lot about both your understanding of education and your own priorities.

So you are happier with mediocre teachers who themselves attended top universities than excellent teachers who, for whatever reason, attended mediocre universities?

You also show a lack of understanding of the myriad reasons a student chooses a university.

Hopefullyagain,

I would want to know whether a teacher was best qualified IN TEACHING rather than whether they have a first degree (of what quality?) from a narrow range of universities. Does a third from Oxford make you a better teacher than a first class degree from a newer university which is an outstanding provider of teacher training?

I note that the list from Xenia does not give ANY teaching qualifications AT ALL....

I have an excellent TH university degree, and A grades at A level etc. It has never really occurred to me to teach outside of state schools. For one thing there are many areas of the country without grammars, or many private schools. I wonder if the academic quals of teachers are different in those areas where there is less choice in the matter?

Non-selective schools will often have more teachers with better teaching qualifications (e.g. PGCEs from very well regarded training providers), though with a wider range of non-teaching qualifications, because they may need a better knowledge of pedagogy to succee in such environments

I am sorry, I do not want to suggest it is not correct but can we establish
a) where the idea comes from ( evidence?)

b) who are these top rated and regarded training providers , so I can get a comparison out there somewhere?

I can again only speak for the sample I have personally action researched :)

I do know every teacher in my top rated independent school has a PGCE and is qualified. Most of them have their PGCE qualifications from their alma maeters or in some instances from two local universities ( both Russell) who have education depts.

I am not sure that is very different from the PGCE/ B Ed qualifications owned by my ex colleagues in my last school. However, I a quick think through ( not in anyway anaysed) would suggest a rather larger number of my ex coleagues in the various state schools over the years have been B.Ed's not graduates with PGCE.

But I would go with the idea there is probably not a lot of difference on this one. A PGCE is a PGCE and being qualified is something I have found in both sectors. Most independents I think ( looking at the jobs in TES now) demand both teaching qualifications and a good degree.

I have an excellent RG university degree, and A grades at A level etc. It has never really occurred to me to teach outside of state schools. For one thing there are many areas of the country without grammars, or many private schools. I wonder if the academic quals of teachers are different in those areas where there is less choice in the matter?

Teacher, a high quality degree from a top university usually means you've received a high quality education yourself. It's likely to mean you are intelligent, can write well, can punctuate, spell and have good written and spoken grammar. A low quality degree from an university that's easy to get into is less likely to indicate all of the above.

I want teachers to be well trained but I also want all the above. The above matters to me and IMO is sadly lacking in too many schools. That does not mean I think you can't have a poor degree from a less well regarded university and not have all those skills in spades.

Jabed,

2010 list of top training providers is here:
newteachers.tes.co.uk/news/top-10-teacher-training-providers-2010/23646

The University oif Buckingham has done the same analysis for 2011, but I can't open the link at present.

Although some of the names are familiar, others like Loughborough, Buckingham, York St John, Canterbury Christ Church are less so.

Hamish, I would still prefer a teacher to be well trained in teaching - excellent pedagogy vs occasional slips in spoken grammar? I know which one I would go for for a teacher for my (very able) children...

I think we need to get away from the Russell Group thing. I am Oxbridge myself and have no feeling toward the Russell Group even though my old college is in there.

These groups areself promoting. It might shake some people torealise two of our top universities - Durham ( which has traditionally been on a par with Oxbridge ) is not part of the RG group. It will join in September. Also York ( another good university, isnt there and neither is Exeter.

The 1994 group also has some excellent universities in it ( this is a coalition of smaller universities ) and includes places such as Royal Holloway, London and Sussex.

I still prefer to think of "good universities" in terms of the tripartate system - Oxbridge, Durham and York, The Redbricks and the Plate Glass universities.

The problem with RG and similar is that it has mixed many old good well established universities with some newer less flagship ones and even an odd ex poly or two.

I don't know why the state school teachers on this thread are so affronted by the idea that parents at independent schools are going to assess their qualifications and experience. Why is that a bad thing? If it's important to me and I'm paying for it, why should it not be a matter for me to judge?

It's what happens in my workplace. We recruit a number of graduates every year. We do not and would not recruit from Gloucester University. Therefore I expect the same sort of standards to apply to the teachers in my DCs schools.

It's life, innit? Education and qualifications matter. Surely as teachers you recognise this?

Interesting link, teacher. It was linked to another article that said the Govt wanted to restrict teacher training to those with a 2:2 degree only:

A spokeswoman for the Department for Education said: "Ministers are currently looking at different ways of improving the quality of teachers. There's plenty of evidence that the best graduates make the best teachers."

Which evidence is that I wonder?

Sorry 2:1 and above only, not 2:2

TW2K - Thank you. Having looked at the list I can say with certainlty that every single colleague at my current independent school was teacher trained at one of those top ten. Most of them were trained and have PGCE's from one of the top four.

My state school had a large number of teachers from places not on that list. I am not saying that is usual. Just taking a look as it is.

I don't know why the state school teachers on this thread are so affronted by the idea that parents at independent schools are going to assess their qualifications and experience. Why is that a bad thing? If it's important to me and I'm paying for it, why should it not be a matter for me to judge?

You dont hopefully? Could you not take an educated guess? As a parent I, like yourself, look at such things too, so it isnt just you!

Hopefully, that would be fine IF you assess TEACHING qualifications AND EXPERIENCE.

The type of list that Xenia links to does not contain either piece of information, so i cannot understand how you can use it to assess THE TEACHING QUALIFICATIONS AND EXPERIENCE of the teachers...

You're right that the list I gave doesn't say if they have a PGCE or not. My children's father worked in a good few very good private selective schools and they only would recruit people with a PGCE.

(Jabed, you are very welcome to assess my qualifications and experience. I am happy that you would find them to your liking. So if you are implying that I don't want them investigated because they are not up to much, then I am sorry to disappoint you...)

Here is the NLCS English equivalent

English

* Mr D. James-Williams, BA (London), MA (Open)
Mrs T. Anslow, BA (Oxon)
Mrs A. Blond, MA (Westminster)
Miss A. Cocksworth, BA (Cantab)
Mrs S. Gamsu, BA (Leeds) (maternity leave)
Mrs S. Gilbert, MA (Cantab)
Dr R. Ling, DPhil (Oxon)
Miss V. Moss, BA (Cantab)
Mrs K. Turley, MA (Oxon)
Mrs H.A. Turner, MA (Cantab)
Mrs D. Wiseman, BA ((London)

Let me see if I can find a school which states who has a PGCE and who has not. I believe virtually all will have PGCE as it has been a requirement in good private schools for ages .

I'm assessing the quality of the individuals, teacher. Individuals with smarts just don't go to Gloucester University. Sorry and all that. I want my DCs educated by people with smarts. It might sound a bit ruthless but the real world is a bit ruthless. Absolutely the same standards apply in my workplace.

Teaching qualifications? How on earth does one as a parent assess teaching qualifications? A one year PGCE is all that most teachers have. And all the teachers in my DCs schools have those. It's a another box ticked, sure enough, but it doesn't go far to assessing the quality of the individual teacher.

Here is one - private school SE, Roysal Masonic for the ahem... slightly less bright girl.... This is the whole list - they don't do subject lists separately. Position 462 in the country for A levels and probably qutie good added value if your girl isn't that clever.

Assistant Academic Staff - Senior School
Mrs LC Adamson, BA Hons (West Sussex Institute), PGCE
Ms C Adby, BSc (Bradford)
Mr M Bannister, MSc (London), MBA (London),PGCE (London)
Mrs V-A Bannister, MBA, BCom (Dublin)
Mrs SE Barton, BSc (Wales), PGCE
Mrs S Bayless, BSc (Bath), PGCE
Ms V J Bayne, BSc (Edinburgh), PGCE
Dr R Bhatt,(Imperial College), MBA, PGCE
Mrs EV Boast, Licence in English (France), BA Hons (UCL)
Miss K Boddey, BSc (De Montfort), PGCE
Mrs S Booth, BA (Bristol), PGCE
Mr C Brammeld, MMus (Sheffield). PGCE
Miss H Brooks, BA (Surrey), BTec (Bucks), PGCE
Mr S G Broome, BSc (Wales), PGCE
Miss S Brown, MA (UCL), BA(Nottingham), PGCE
Mr A F Buddie, BSc (Dundee), PGCE
Mrs N Chadha, MA (Royal College of Art), Cert Ed
Mrs H Clivaz, BSc (Oxford), PGCE
Miss A Coates, MSc (Wales), BSc (Herts), PGCE
Miss K Cook, BSc (Reading), PGCE(London)
Mrs N Datoo, BA (York), BEd (York)
Mr M Dichlian BSc Hons (Bath), PGCE, GTP
Miss M Dines, BA Hons(Bucks), PGCE
Mr S Dowds, BA (Liverpool), PGCE
Miss E Durnford, BSc (Bath), MEd(Cambridge), PGCE
Ms M Flatto, BA (Manchester), PGCE
Miss E Fox, BA (Leeds Met), PGCE
Mrs CE Freeman, BSc (Durham),PGCE
Miss C Frossard, Licence Es Lettres (Strasbourg), PGCE
Mrs B Georgellis, BSc (Nebraska), MA (Staffordshire),PGCE
Mr CL Gordon, MA (Toronto), BA Hons (Waterloo), BEd (Toronto)
Mrs E Griffin, MA (Hertfordshire)
Mr F Grogan, BA, (York),PGCE
Mr M Handford, Cert Ed
Miss S Hards, BA (Durham), PGCE
Mrs DE Heaffey, BA (Middlesex), PGCE
Miss H Hughes, MA (Lancaster), PGCE
Mrs D Hurdle, MSc (London), PGCE
Miss E Hutchinson, MSc (Loughborough), PGCE
Mr DP Hyde, BMus Hons (Birmingham), ALCM,PGCE
Mrs N Isherwood, BEd (Sussex), Dip LCDD
Ms V Jones, BEd (Warwick)
Mr P Jowsey, BSc (Birmingham)
Mrs WM Kent, Cert Ed
Mrs L Kingston, BA (De Montfort), PGCE
Miss A Lavelle, BA (London), PGCE
Miss A Lawrence, BA (London) PGCE
Miss C Lomax, BA (Leeds), PGCE
Miss C Malan, BA Hons (W.Engl), PGCE
Mr D Mathieson, MA (Oxford), PGCE
Mrs J McCurdy, BA (UCLA), MA (Hertfordshire), PGCE
Mrs A-M McDermott, MA(Open), BA (Liverpool), PGCE
Miss L Monk, BSc (Leeds), PGCE
Miss K Morris, BA (Manchester), PGCE
Mrs A Muchamore, Licence Universite Orleans-Tours, France
Mrs A Murray, BSc (Bristol), PGCE
Miss E O?Connor, BSc (Hertfordshire),PGCE
Mr J G Piqueiras, BA Hons (Spain), PGCE (Spain), BTEC Speech & Language Therapy
Mrs A Ralph, BSc (Lancaster), PGCE
Mrs S Reeve, MSc (London), BSc (Leicester)
Mr JG Richardson, B-Tech (Brunel)
Mrs D Ronaldson, B Ed (Newcastle)
Mrs Z Sears, MSc (Hungary),PGCE
Miss J Simmonite, BA (Loughborough), PGCE
Mrs CA Simpson, BSc (Reading),PGCE
Miss G Smith, BA (Open),PGCE
Mrs K Smithard, BSc (Loughborough),PGCE
Mr REA Snow, BSc (Southampton), PGCE
Mr D Spain
Miss C Spencer, MA (Open), PGCE
Mrs E Spendiff, BSc (Staffordshire),PGCE
Miss HS Stanley, B Ed (Liverpool)
Mr M Stewart, BA (Durham), PGCE
Mrs B Taylor, LLB (Brunel)
Mrs N Timoney, MSc (Warwick), PGCE
Miss C Viseras-Marin, Licenciada en Filosofia y Letras (Spain), PGCE
Mrs J Whitbread, MA (Trinity), PGCE
Miss S Williams, BSc (London), PGCE
Mrs C Wolf, BA (Liverpool), PGCE
Mr NM Young, MA (Oxon), MCIBS, PGCE