The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

My DH has worked in several top academic state and boarding schools and only has a 2.2 from a 'red brick' university. However, he was definitely in the minority with most teachers being Oxbridge graduates, many with PhDs. Doesn't make them automatically better teachers though!

I think every secondary school teacher should have a degree in their given subject and a minimum of an A in GCSE English and Maths. Sadly, this is rarely the case nowadays.

My daughters maths teacher is from Cambridge, her English teacher from Oxford and her Science teacher from Harvard. At our local non selective state school. Her French teacher is French, her Spanish teacher is Spanish and her Latin teacher is very old. They all seem very nice and my daughter says they are OK (teenage speak for good, I think). Best teacher I ever had went to night school to get their degree !

The short answer HamishBear is No. I've worked at a few posh private schools where some of the teachers have an HND. These were often the better teachers.

Ask anyone who has gone to university whether or not having a really good degree makes you a really good teacher. I work in a HEI and believe me, many of the lecturers don't have the foggiest idea how to teach, despite their PhDs. A large part of my job is introducing them to the basics.

Often having struggled to grasp a concept makes a teacher better at accommodating those students who struggle themselves. The very bright ones who sailed through their own schooling can sometimes find it difficult to explain something that seems so obvious to them.

I agree with Colleger though. Illiterate and innumerate teachers are a personal bugbear of mine.

Seem to remember at my independent school that the Maths teacher with an Oxbridge first was actually the worst teacher, as he had no empathy with pupils who struggled with Maths.
The lists of degrees and university where teachers studied are there to impress parents really. Most of my dds teachers studied at the local RG group university.

This made me laugh: Her French teacher is French, her Spanish teacher is Spanish and her Latin teacher is very old

Must say though that my French teacher was French and she was rubbish. Having a lot of knowledge doesn't always make you very effective at conveying it clearly and well.

Thanks.

I didn't say best as in 'great teacher' I said 'best qualified' - in other words do the top independents usually have the highest number of teachers with firsts from Oxbridge etc?

If I want to work at say Guildford High and I have a 2:2 in Maths from a Millennium university it doesn't sound like they'd be interested? I'd not get a look in.

I've just asked my daughter, who is in the 6th form at Guildford High and therefore matey with lots of the teachers by now, about this. She says they are pretty much all from Russell Group type universities with a good few from Oxbridge - the rest from places like Bristol, Durham etc. Obviously she has no idea what class of degree they have; there are a few with PhDs, but not many. I'd say most of the teachers she has had have been very good as teachers, but of course they are teaching in an academic single sex environment, which I would think would be easier in many ways than some other jobs. I don't think that the staff are chosen to impress the parents, as we would have no way of knowing where any of them came from without asking the girls. Hope this helps.

I liked the bit about the Spanish teacher being Spanish and the Latin teacher being old

How does being old make the teacher a better Latin teacher than a young one?

I don't know about independent schools, but a higher proportion of teachers at selective state schools have a relevant degree in the subject they are teaching than teachers at non-selective state schools do. So in a selective school, you are more likely to be taught Physics by somebody with a degree in Physics and so on.

'The survey also showed that schools with higher numbers of pupils eligible for free school meals tended to have fewer teachers with post A-level qualifications relevant to the subjects they teach.
Grammar schools had the highest proportion of specially qualified teachers.
Schools with the poorest pupils had the lowest number of teachers with relevant post A-level qualifications.
This fact was highlighted by Liberal Democrat schools spokesman David Laws.
"It's no wonder that many young people from deprived backgrounds struggle to do well when so many are taught by people who are not well qualified in the subject they are teaching," he said.'

From here:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7433339.stm

I am a maths teacher and it is well known that the best mathematicians make the worst teachers as they don't understand why children don't just get it. Some of the best teachers I have worked with have poor degrees from dodgy universities. They are inspirational teachers though and surely that is what matters!

If it is well known, then the government should put in place a policy of only employing people as maths teachers if they aren't very good at maths.

If what matters is whether or not you are an inspirational teacher, then I don't understand why teachers need a degree at all.

When DD's old school merged with another more elite school, all teachers had to reapply for their jobs. Quite a few didn't stand a chance because the elite school required teachers to have 1st class degrees from top universities. Wouldn't say this makes them the best teachers though. DD science teacher failed to gain a place because he only has a 2:1 degree, yet he has one of the best teachers I've ever encountered!

Interesting, Mutteroo. Ideally as a parent I'd hope for the best qualified subject specialists in front of my children that were also outstanding teachers. The best schools can get both, it's no wonder they get such good results.

Sad about the science teacher.

At my DS indie a teacher was recently let go after only a few months there because she couldn't control her class. I can't see that happening at a state school.

So Indies may not necessarily employ the best teachers but bad ones certainly don't stick around for long.

Everything on here is necessarily going to be anecdotal - unless Anyone has a link to a study that shows the answer?

There are always going to be exceptions, I'm sure. But certainly for the school you mention, OP, a lot of the teachers have PhDs too (well, maybe not a lot but enough for you to wonder whether to say Dr or Mrs before you start talking).

But great qualifications doesnt make you a great teacher but the obvious enthusiasm for the subject goes a long way to engaging the kids. And when you combine good qualifications with enthusiasm and a gift for teaching - that's what I'm looking for, to be honest. That's why parents pay the money, certainly in my case anyway.

The best teacher I ever had was my A Level Law teacher. He 'only' had an HND when his peers all had degrees.

So I totally agree that simply looking at teachers qualifications gives you no idea about the quality of their teaching.

There's not a very strong correlation between academic qualifications and teaching ability. It does look good if a teacher has been to a prestige University, but there are plenty of highly academic people with rubbish personal and teaching skills.

If I had to recruit blind, and could only appoint on the basis of paperwork and not interviewing and observing a lesson, I'd go for recent successful practice in a similar environment. I can see why schools like a good degree to put on their prospectus though.

@ her Latin teacher is very old.

"How does being old make the teacher a better Latin teacher than a young one?"

He's 2000 years old! :o

"If what matters is whether or not you are an inspirational teacher, then I don't understand why teachers need a degree at all."

Because while you don't want a gifted mathematician who doesn't understand why anyone finds maths difficult, you need someone who knows a lot about maths.

I think there may be a caveat in this, in that a teacher teaching at a highly academic school needs to be able to parry the high level questioning that he will inevitably get. A teacher who only managed Bs and Cs at GCSE and the same at A Level followed by a 2.2 from a not particularly competitive university probably couldn't deliver at one of the top independents (or for that matter at a state school of the same calibre). That said, a First won't in itself signify an able teacher, in the same way that the most brilliant of tutors at university aren't always the most inspirational either.

Caramel's quote is not anecdotal. It's fact.

The more academic schools in both sectors tend to have the teachers with a degree in their subject from an RG etc university who are also good teachers.

This staff list on line of a school similar to my children's which have tendet to be top 10 - 40 by a level results. None of mine were at this boys' school but it is in line with theirs in terms of staff qualifications. Now if I can find say Henrietta Barnet - local state grammar or Watford Grammar ( state comp despite its name) we could compare from the same local area. I will look.

habsboys.org.uk/info/govstaff1112.php

Interstring the state comp - Watford grammar - does not give where the teachers went... www.watfordboys.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74&Itemid=81

It may be a state school political correctness privacy data protection issue of course although as we are paying their salaries we ought to be allowed to know.

HB (state grammar) has let me down too unless I've missed it and it may be a rule to keep it secret.

www.hbschool.org.uk/stylesheet.asp?file=191_staff